A warzone clan can't be compared to a football club. It should be, it could be but there are no boards, chairmen, secretaries, membership, supporters. Clans are far more basic, a clan leader perhaps a council. There is no fit and proper persons test, no checks, no charters, no constitution. For this reason we can't compare a clan to a football club. I believe the rules are written for the players. The active CL playing players being who are cared for by the rules.

Just wanted to give my personal take on it, cause i think it's not as one dimensional as some might think it is and it might help some to understan. I actually think there is one thing in this entire discussion that wasn't addressed enough in this thread.


What about the rule?

First of all, the rule itself makes sense in my mind and depending on the interpretation of the words "another new clan" you can say, that the rule can be used from Masters to take Apprentice spot or not. Depending on what new means for everybody. Does it mean new for the competition, in a way that a clan is new, if he didn't participated in CL before? Which time frame, never before or just last season? Or is a clan new, if he was just created on warzone in general, so did this rule implemented to cover up cases in which real split ups of clans can claim a spot like the 101st/Outlaws scenario? Depending on the interpretation of those words "another new clan" everybody can find a definition for himself and then come up with their mind if the rule can be used or can't be used.

So i have mine, but i keep that for myself, just one thing. Overall i think nobody really has a problem with this case, as Apprentice players who are now in Masters played in this spot before and why shouldn't they be able to play in that spot anymore as Masters if they joind them, right? I think there is a general consens of that.


Is there a deeper problem?

What i think gets missed or doesn't get mentioned enough is the fact, that this specific case, in contrast to former cases like 101st and Outlaws shows how brother/sister clans can benefit and use advantages in comparison to other clans.

Let's take the French Community as an example for every clan, that once played in this league, dropped out and comes back or wants to come back to play again. The majority of clans are independant and have no training clans. They train their players within that one clan. They have no chance to make a shortcut back on their way into the top division, as they have no brother/sister clans. In contrast to them Masters can now use that rule to make their shortcut back to A. Something that wouldn't be possible for any other clan, who would need to start at the lowest division, currently D. Just if they merge with a clan, that already has a spot, but then there is a difference in my mind if a merger happens between Apprentice and Masters, who aren't really independant, as they always were affiliated to each other or two really independant clans, who would decide on a merger. Two totally independant clans lose their independance if they merge with another clan. The risks are far higher and they have a lot more to lose by merging with another clan. Masters and Apprentice on the other hand are different. The risk is low, as they known each other for years and are in the same system, under the same umbrella basically always as one clan, who just was divided into an "elite" part of the clan and a "training" part of the clan.

I think that's the main problem. This case shows that there is another advantage for brother/sister clans in comparison to the majority of independent clans. It's a problem that was discussed dozens of times, over and over again. Shall brother/sister clans vote on templates? Shall they be allowed to play in the same division? This is just another example. Shall brother/sister clans be able to use this rule to make a shortcut, that other clans, who are independent can't really make, at least not in that same style.

The main problem was and is always on deciding and defining what brother/sister clans really are. I think there is nobody who would doubt that Masters & Apprentice or Lynx & 101st are basically the same clan. But what about WG and SNinja? Those were often the two clans coming up, when talking about the problems to defining brother/sister clans. What about clans in general who play with each other quite a bit. What if they have a person affiliated with both clans, were some might say that person connects both clans somehow? Those questions show that it might not be as easy as some think it is, to define brother/sister clans.


What about solutions?

Unless there would be a hard cut decision to define it or discuss the individual cases, i think the only way to bring everybody on a more equal playing field would be to allow 2nd teams/multiple teams for every clan. It has some risks, but if everybody has the same chance to field other teams i think nobody could protest anymore about advantages brother/sister clans have currently in comparison to other clans.

The only other solution would be to change up the entire setup of divisions and make it an elimination style of tournament, so every clan has a shot at winning, but as i can't find a system that works equally efficient time wise than the current one, i don't think a system change into something like that can be done. CL would take a lot longer again and that's something nobody really wants i guess. Unless u say that the only problem of longer CLs was, that clans who had to climb to the top needed multiple years to get a shot at winning the competition, which wouldn't be a problem anymore if everybody got a chance to win it, but well i still think it would be hard to implement. Maybe not impossible, through. But that's something to really think about much longer than i did now.


Here is my conclusion?

I think it's not a problem of Masters getting the spot, but a deeper problem of the overall system that shows flaws in regards to brother/sister clans and independent clans. So i think it would be the best to let in 2nd teams/multiple teams of clans to try creating and equal playing field again. It has it flaws and maybe it doesn't work out, but how do we know if we're not trying it out? So i'd give it a try. If it's working, than everything is fine and we got rid of the main advantages brother/sister clans have over the others. If it doesn't work, then get rid of it and we either have to bite the current flaws or come up with other solutions. If we're f.ex. witnessing, that a lot of 3rd teams get created or 4th, 5th teams and the fun, especially for clans in lower divisions gets reduced since those 2nd/3rd teams might be to strong and take up spaces in B or even A, then again, get rid of it again. But like i said, why not give it a try?

Edited 4/9/2020 13:18:39

"it is not fair,the masters should Play from D like every other clan. If not it ruins the idea of the league where you have to fight to get to the division you deserve"

Except we did. Apprentice went from the bottom to the top like every clan, this is nothing more than a rebranding of the team.

To bounce off Edge's idea of an elimination style format:

I could see something like applying the old Q1/Q2/Q3/ system format to the entire league work out:



Everyone would get a chance in said format... and it probably would last for about the same time, perhaps even shorter since I don't imagine the top clans in each qualifying division having to play full throttle to secure their way into the top division of part two.

Of course, the limitation to that is if too many clans join, this particular system breaks down since the clan divisions get too large (even if adding more divisions in this format).

No multiple stage format. We run into the same problem with time. Clans inevitably will stall their games to some extent and keep the league going for months beyond what's necessary.

FCC and Discovery will boycott if Masters plays in division A or B next season. I hope other clans are willing to follow us, perhaps if enough of us leave this corrupt league we can start our own.

I am quite confused. So it appears as though the Master clan lost their slot last season and so is going to take the slot of the Apprentice clan right? So Apprentice has to start from the bottom again, right? That seems fair. Apprentice worked to earn that slot in Div A, they have a right to give it away to a clan of their choice. That just means they should have to start at the bottom again.

Edited 4/9/2020 14:45:22

nosense for me

Apprentice won't be playing CL, but if they were to, they would start in D as the clan spot and hence the seeding would go to Masters.

I think the members of FCC will boycott and upsurp the awful dictator xeno jinping who rules with an iron fist if xeno wishes to force his draconian intentions to boycott FCC from clan league.

Down with tyranny!

#FreeFCC

FCC is full of wankers

Update of my earlier statement to clarify my stance as a member of the audit panel:



I can already see that is likely going to be case for the audit panel. Given the ongoing discussion, it's already clear now that no matter which decision is taken, people will want to amend it. Since Cowboy is in Masters, it may be appropriate that an independent body takes a look at this, but I have since been told that he will not take the decision (alone).

If this case were to end up at the audit panel, I would prefer the following structure. To avoid an overload of repeat discussion, can we bundle the evidence and arguments. Ideally, there'd be 4 "reports" on this case:

• One by the people taking the actual decision in which they explain their arguments for this ruling.
  
• One in which all arguments in favour of giving Masters the spot of Apprentice are summarized (focus on objective arguments and the rules, not flavour or subjective pro-Masters bias).
  
• One in which all arguments against giving Masters the spot of Apprentice are summarized (focus on objective arguments and the rules, not flavour or subjective anti-Masters bias).
  
• One by people who were around and involved in the writing of this rule detailed the process and reasoning of the rule and why and how it was applied in the past, this should not include a preference for a ruling in this case but inform the audit panel on the nature of precedents and earlier interpretation.

For the second and third report, people giving arguments in this topic best agree on someone who can summarize and collect the relevant information.
For the fourth report, this information has reached me already.

If necessary, the audit panel (me+Styxie) will have a look at these reports.

This post was edited to make it clear that I no way intend to pull this matter towards audit panel or that I believe audit panel should take the decision. This is and remains the responsability of the organisers or a panel appointed by them. (i.e. Cowboy, CL panel or an appropriately appointed panel such as Ethics) Audit panel will only be involved in people believe they did not follow the rules or fair judgement in their decision process.

Hence, the original post was made with the tone in this topic in mind. I perceive it to be very likely that there will be complaints afterwards and the audit panel will sadly have to be involved. Do note that I would actually prefer that this will not happen as I value my free time. If I had a lot of spare time for things like this, Clan Cup would still be up and running!

Consequently, you can ignore the instructions above for now (and hopefully they will not be needed).





For my personal opinion:

I don't know enough about it yet to have a strong opinion, but I find it hard to read through some of the reactions and general tone of discussion in this topic.
All I can say: if this is important for you, take the steps proposed above and present your arguments like a respectful reasonable adult. If it's not important, don't lose your sleep over it and don't behave like a troll bot, we have enough of those elsewhere on the internet.

Ok we have come up with a solution. Masters and Apprentice will merge into Blitz and Blitz will get a spot in CL A

How about.. no. We don't want Tito back

As an active member of MH, FCC, GG, and {101st}, I represent all my clans' unanimous decision to officially endorse Masters taking Apprentice's spot.

Edit: Edge's post summarizes the problem pretty well, only thing is that most clans don't have enough members to actually field two teams.

Edited 4/9/2020 17:47:39

Give the spot to [20]

Darklords should be the clan to get the spot since there #1 on the clan page

Math wolf since when has this anything to do with the audit panel? The audit panel is there to check if the decisions of the ethics panel are correct, so you honestly got not a single thing to say about this topic since the rules are clear. If you took the trolling attempts asking for a decision by the audit panel seriously i feel sorry for your wasted time. Also, there is probably a need to replace styxie since she wasn't active for quite a while on warzone.

I already talked to MW about it and told him it's not his responsibility to make a ruling on this. It's being talked over by the ethics panel.

As far as Styxie, I agree, but I'll probably wait a bit to open up applications to the CL Panel, Audit Panel, and Ethics Panel.

As an active member of MH, FCC, GG, and {101st}, I represent all my clans' unanimous decision to officially endorse Masters taking Apprentice's spot.

Nah, M'Hunters doesn't care about that.


I don't like those training clans because I find it humiliating joining a clan which is beta by definition. However that's just me. If you see it differently then that's like you ordering Budweiser while I prefer good German Hefeweizen. The waitress takes our orders with neither of us having to justify ourself for being a bad person.