There's seems to be a lot of pettiness going on in this thread.

Apprentice owns a slot in A and likely a slot in B next season. All the Apprentice players who played in Clan League moved to Master's.

Master's gets to claim Apprentice's slot because Apprentice does not have >33% (or whatever the cutoff is I didn't look it up) of their CL points and Master's does. If instead the Apps players had made a new clan called "Cowboy Hood and his merry men," that clan would get to claim Apprentice's slot.

If we had all the Master's players wanting to join Apprentice there would be no argument that Apprentice would play in B (or A if they somehow don't relegate).

So this amounts to a complaint about clan tag, which is just really petty.

I think I lost some brain cells reading all this. One thing I noticed is that over this whole debate, no one has clarified what exactly the rule that allows Masters to go back to A was. I know what it is though, and someone may have said it when I was skimming through all the posts.

I know I have no say in what comes out of this, but I agree that Masters should start from Div. D and not get right back in Div. A just for the sake of one stupid rule.

So why are you turning a blind eye to Irise insulting cowboy and spitting on the work he has done? Mod just retaliated. Whilst that doesnt excuse mod, it doesnt mean he is the only problem here.

@min you are the blind one here if you still think i spitted on cowboy's work or insulted him. i explicitly stated that on discord and you simply chose to ignore it. do not twist the truth regardless of your stance in this matter.

So this amounts to a complaint about clan tag, which is just really petty.

Essentially.

Clan league/tag/rule drama?

Quelle surprise!

Hi Cloud.

I think I lost some brain cells reading all this. One thing I noticed is that over this whole debate, no one has clarified what exactly the rule that allows Masters to go back to A was. I know what it is though, and someone may have said it when I was skimming through all the posts.

I know I have no say in what comes out of this, but I agree that Masters should start from Div. D and not get right back in Div. A just for the sake of one stupid rule.


@Viking I stated the rule and why people are being petty by opposing it.

The rule is claiming spots for a clan. If you have a cutoff of points for a clan in the previous clan league while that clan DOES NOT have the cutoff they get to claim that clan's spot. In this scenario Master's claims Apprentice's spot because everyone who played CL for Apprentice joined Master's. For the record it is unlikely Master's will play in A next season. Most likely scenario is they play in B.

I know this would never happen but imagine that Let's Fight, J.P., Axl, Dreamworker, Brak, Thor, TurboTT117, AlexB, T54321, Glardharmion, and Kicker decided to break off from Hawks and create a new clan called "Eagles." That new clan would get Hawks' slot in B because it's functionally the same clan that played the slot the previous season.

Edited 4/8/2020 22:53:49

Multiple people asked me to react, so the following will be my (edited) official statement as a member of the audit panel:


I can already see that is likely going to be case for the audit panel. Given the ongoing discussion, it's already clear now that no matter which decision is taken, people will want to amend it. Since Cowboy is in Masters, it may be appropriate that an independent body takes a look at this, but I have since been told that he will not take the decision (alone).

If this case were to end up at the audit panel, I would prefer the following structure. To avoid an overload of repeat discussion, can we bundle the evidence and arguments. Ideally, there'd be 4 "reports" on this case:

• One by the people taking the actual decision in which they explain their arguments for this ruling.
  
• One in which all arguments in favour of giving Masters the spot of Apprentice are summarized (focus on objective arguments and the rules, not flavour or subjective pro-Masters bias).
  
• One in which all arguments against giving Masters the spot of Apprentice are summarized (focus on objective arguments and the rules, not flavour or subjective anti-Masters bias).
  
• One by people who were around and involved in the writing of this rule detailed the process and reasoning of the rule and why and how it was applied in the past, this should not include a preference for a ruling in this case but inform the audit panel on the nature of precedents and earlier interpretation.

For the second and third report, people giving arguments in this topic best agree on someone who can summarize and collect the relevant information.
For the fourth report, this information has reached me already.

If necessary, the audit panel (me+Styxie) will have a look at these reports.

This post was edited to make it clear that I no way intend to pull this matter towards audit panel or that I believe audit panel should take the decision. This is and remains the responsability of the organisers or a panel appointed by them. (i.e. Cowboy, CL panel or an appropriately appointed panel such as Ethics) Audit panel will only be involved in people believe they did not follow the rules or fair judgement in their decision process.

Hence, the original post was made with the tone in this topic in mind. I perceive it to be very likely that there will be complaints afterwards and the audit panel will sadly have to be involved. Do note that I would actually prefer that this will not happen as I value my free time. If I had a lot of spare time for things like this, Clan Cup would still be up and running!

Consequently, you can ignore the instructions above for now (and hopefully they will not be needed).





For my personal opinion:

I don't know enough about it yet to have a strong opinion, but I find it hard to read through some of the reactions and general tone of discussion in this topic.
All I can say: if this is important for you, take the steps proposed above and present your arguments like a respectful reasonable adult. If it's not important, don't lose your sleep over it and don't behave like a troll bot, we have enough of those elsewhere on the internet.

Edited 4/9/2020 16:39:07

Just to be explicit about the rule in question:



The following lays out the scenarios in which a clan's spot could change hands:
If a clan X retains active players who accounted for one third of their slots (6/18) and one third of their scored points then it is guaranteed to retain its spot.
If clan X splits and X does not retain both one third of their slots and of their points, another new clan Y can claim the spot if they have active players accounting for one third of that clan's slots and points. If X didn't meet the requirements, while two different clans Y and Z do and both claim the spot then the spot is awarded to neither clan and both must start from the bottom.
Say, Clan X got 90pts and needs 30pts to retain its spot in CL11. Player A, B and C played on a 3v3 tournament where they won 15pts but now only Player A is left in Clan X. In this case player A would account for 5 points(not 15)
If a player goes AWOL (or is suspended from CL), he doesn't count toward meeting the 1/3 of players requirement. None of the points he won count either. If this player was on a team, the points will be pro-rated.



Edit: With the audit panel officially stepping in this will be my last post on the matter. I think my opinion is clearly that the rule is fine and that Master's has every right to exercise it.

Edited 4/8/2020 23:00:53

I think basically everyone ignores one fundamental thing:

a good community respect all opinions.. ok we have rules and we have to respect it. But we have to heard all opinion and try to keep calm when we talk between us. I was the first who said "i prefer Master in A/B", but when I saw in discord chat and now in this thread how mod managing this situation with his commentary and with his bully style he broke my balls literally and he deserve division M only for be rude. Master of Desaster lost few points in my opinion. Cowboy doing the hard work, yes. But all clans deserve this clan league and deserve say his opinion. So I hope the next discussion will be different. Bye

Why we are discussing it? They used an official rule as they should do if you don't like it remove the rule and why we are getting spammed with mails to answer in this post from LYNX members?

please stop mailing me

Hahahahahahahahaha

@min you are the blind one here if you still think i spitted on cowboy's work or insulted him. i explicitly stated that on discord and you simply chose to ignore it. do not twist the truth regardless of your stance in this matter.

The only thing remotely close to that is:


Which is a poor statement at best that doesn't "explicitly state" what you claim. But even if it did, it doesn't matter. You posted it in discord which not everybody is in. You posted it on an evening a couple of hundred messages were sent. You posted the bad message on the forum, for anybody to see. It will stay here forever and is clear and easy to read for anybody. If you truly didn't mean it you would've made a clear statement in this thread.

he has written tens of times in differnet servers about wanting apps and masters to merge

Up until Mod proposed the merger the only thing I've ever said is I want Masters playing for Apprentice. This is a lie.

Why we are discussing it? They used an official rule as they should do if you don't like it remove the rule and why we are getting spammed with mails to answer in this post from LYNX members?

Are you saying Lynx has an anti-Masters agenda?

i sent 9 mails to : fc bayern, sexmachine,botanator, diestamenos,mathwolf, beren, recmart, immortal and my friend noname to tell them to react on this thread!
1 more time, it s not Lynx!!It s Zev

Lol this has blown up big time, and after reading the posts the following is my very summarised opinion: Masters should be allowed to take Apps' slot because the current rule allows them to, but the rule should be changed in future. Yes, a clan is about the people and therefore in this situation Master is effectively Apps, however here's the issue - Masters has other (non-apps) players in it who significantly benefit from this by getting to skip at least 2 divisions because they did a merger with apps. This is what I think is unfair.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't there theoretically be a situation where two clans have equal claim to the same slot? (i.e. Clan X has 50% of their point-scoring player leave to Clan Y, so now clan Y has an equal claim to the slot as Clan X under the current rule? Unlikely, but theoretically possible, if I haven't misunderstood the rule.)

In terms of MathWolf's reports, I feel like there is one report missing - the let Masters in but change the rule report. Anyway, that's my opinion, I'll leave the rest to the experts who have been around in CL for longer.

If a clan X retains active players who accounted for one third of their slots (6/18) and one third of their scored points then it is guaranteed to retain its spot.

Clan X referring to the original clan, so no, that is not the case.

Okay cool.
But that slightly backfires on the people>tag argument. In the scenario I mentioned, both clans had an equal claim to being the original clan, since they both had the same number of that clan's players. So there is something in a tag...

Edited 4/9/2020 01:11:38