I actually agree with Viking.

Whats so wrong with it as it is?
Join Clan Cup when you want it fast. Why making Clan League to a '2nd Clan Cup' ?

Edited 10/2/2019 23:04:18

@Farah

max 1 vacation per game seems not that hard to enforce. You take a second, your opps or anyone else can point this out. Player receives warning to terminate it, if he does not within 1 day, then game is lost.

And that would really solve the issue combined together with scheduled games.

Thing when it comes to vacations, they can be activated at any time. Players were still delaying the league in August, and maybe even some right now. Banked time adds 15 extra days to the end of CL, on the other hand, vacations can add anywhere from 30-70 days to the end of it.

As far as a limit of 1 vacation, I don't see why that would be better than banked time, since that's literally the same as banked time, but having to be administered by us, instead of it being automatic.

I thought about a vacation limit of 3, but the problem is, while that's fine on 1v1s, I was having trouble figuring how this couldn't be gamed on team games, as they could just stack their vacations together.
This is not including the extra programming or management that would have to be included.

I see banked time as worse because it will be added by default to many games and it won’t give a regular pace to turns, e.g. a game starts and you do not know when it will actually start, maybe after 15 days. Same for each turn.

I quite like having a regular pace, definitely not longer than 3 days. Vacation is once, then you can expect to play, the system of 4 days boot + banked time will dilute games too much.

About efforts for managing the limit of 1 vacation, it seems just a problem in theory. In reality people won’t normally try take 2 vacations if this is not allowed... and stallers are not many and with all eyes looking at them. I feel it would work without much effort

Edited 10/3/2019 00:32:48

First, +1 what Beren said.

Second, I think a lot of the arguments that have been made by pro-vacationers were already answered or also apply to vacations.

I see banked time as worse because it will be added by default to many games and it won’t give a regular pace to turns, e.g. a game starts and you do not know when it will actually start, maybe after 15 days. Same for each turn.

And with vacations it could be up to 70 days. What about banked time makes this worse?

I quite like having a regular pace, definitely not longer than 3 days. Vacation is once, then you can expect to play, the system of 4 days boot + banked time will dilute games too much.

But you can take a vacation after every turn if you want. It's not like a vacation is just once and then it speeds up. What Cowboy said is true, banked time is the same as having max 1.5 vacations, but it doesn't have to be monitored. I don't know what "diluting" games means, but it would probably also be like that with vacations.

About efforts for managing the limit of 1 vacation, it seems just a problem in theory. In reality people won’t normally try take 2 vacations if this is not allowed... and stallers are not many and with all eyes looking at them. I feel it would work without much effort

This seems a little optimistic... Logging into other peoples' accounts isn't allowed, but people did it. It would likely take a whole new panel to monitor vacations (or it'd be up to ethics panel), and we all know how much everyone loves and always agrees with the panels in CL.

I'm pretty sure nobody reads my stuff, so let me reiterate. Why should a majority of players wait on a few who can't/won't play consistently? I have yet to find another competition taken remotely seriously, that pauses for the people who need to dip out. Nobody is trying to "rush" the clan league, but there has to be a plan to limit the delays.

(Edit: For tracking vacations. Probably easiest to just have notes on who goes on vacation during clan league. Have a max number of those before they get penalized. If someone is listed as having a vacation 11 days apart, you know they are at least on 2 counts, you don't need to know when exactly they started/finished it this way. It doesn't hurt anyone if they break their vacation and then re-enter it early. Even with a limit on vacations to reduce the huge delays, its still less flexible than banked time.)

"Also, think about this? What's more enjoyable?

1- Players getting booted left and right?
2- Or players not getting booted?

#2 is obviously better!"

Viking, this is overly simplistic and very, very incomplete. The whole point of either system is to avoid players booting, with different emphasis. It's ridiculous to imply otherwise.

Some of us have been explicitly attempting to keep a banking system effective for players with RL obstacles, not just the "rushing" players. I think most people might know in advance if they will be stuck without any form of internet for a month and a half. Barring an accident or an outage, of course. I'm not rewriting anything I wrote before in this thread.

Speaking of rhythm.

My games falls into 2 types:
1. Check over it a few times, and procrastinate
2. Check over it very frequently and actively analyze several times a day/turn.
^ In neither scenario do I have a "rhythm" that is disrupted by turns that can vary around 3 days. If anything, I would welcome the additional flexibility in the latter scenario, and my opponents wouldn't give a hoot. Perhaps other people are more regimented in their gameplay?

Here's a lost game that my opponents surrendered due to a boot. https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=19586320
BST didn't commit in time, and was booted, without being in vacation. My understanding of auto-commit is that he needed to input any orders to avoid being booted. Maybe he was up really late and fell asleep? Maybe he was waiting for a teammate's reply and forgot to check back? Maybe he was busy with work and couldn't check back in time. Maybe he had an argument with someone and couldn't concentrate? Maybe he had a power outage? Doesn't matter, he didn't take a vacation in advance.

If this was a Clan League game, that would be 5 points and a couple of weeks decided by something minor, not something vacation worthy. (I was losing.)

A banked time mode would have deducted some time, but not booted him. I don't know how that would work alongside auto-commit. I'd rather have turns that can consistently run an extra day, than a huge break that requires me to re-analyze the entire game.

I think "small" lapses like this are at least as important a case as the long-term vacationers, given that it can much more easily affect any of us.

Edited 10/3/2019 02:52:45

@Farah

max 1 vacation per game seems not that hard to enforce. You take a second, your opps or anyone else can point this out. Player receives warning to terminate it, if he does not within 1 day, then game is lost.

And that would really solve the issue combined together with scheduled games.

While that might be true, you take away even more flexibility from the player. One vacation can be one day or ten days. With the banked time, you have the added flexibility to take a few days off multiple times without setting a vacation. The added benefit of this (as long as it's combined with a schedule), is that no individual can stall the end of the season. The other added benefit is that delaying your turn in one game, doesn't affect others necessarily, while a vacation does.

I see banked time as worse because it will be added by default to many games and it won’t give a regular pace to turns, e.g. a game starts and you do not know when it will actually start, maybe after 15 days. Same for each turn.

I don't see how this is different. If your opponent delays the game for 15 days, he is now out of banked time and vacations aren't respected. Therefore you can expect a regular pace. The same is true for allowing one vacation per game. Your opponent could set a vacation for 10 days and after that the pace returns to normal. Again, the system with 15 days banked allows for more flexibility. I will reiterate that we're not looking to force players to play faster. The issue is that every season, the end gets stalled out by a few individuals who chain vacations. This solution combats that, while it still gives players the chance to take time off.

Can we have one template with 'take turns mod'?

No, because that mod is garbage.

Hi how do I join this

@Sparklemuffin, join a clan first step. Second, a clan that competes in Clan League.

@I Swear, a boot every once in a while is fine, but players constantly getting booted is no fun for all the clans, I think. As I am aware, I would want to have competitive games, not players getting booted.

Maybe just honor vacations? No big thing to do! Rushed play makes the game all that less enjoyable!

Why try to speed up clan league?

Because the event which used to last no more than 6 months takes a year to now complete fully.

Because it's now a forced commitment to the game months down the line, that many people can no longer honor at the end of the seasons creating more boots.

Because there is no reason divisions that don't stall the end of clan league (such as division B), should be punished because 5 people decided to take 40+ day vacations at the end of clan league with around 15 games remaining.

Because the more time goes on, the more people complain about the pace of clan league, and eventually something has to be done.

Okay i can see it.

Though I doubt you will speed up the whole clan league.
Simple Reason. While in A and B all tourneys run parallely. Q and C are 2 stages running serial.

Limit vacations will speed up A and B likely, yes.
But I didnt feel that Qs and C have been delayed intentionally.
So it wont make Qs and C faster as it is now.

So no matter if you can speed up Div A and B.
We will then just wait for Qs and Div C to finish.
So you will not speed up the whole Clan League Season.

Theoretical Timeline:
[Tournaments A] ______free_______|
[Tournaments B] ______free_______|
[Tournaments Q] [Tournaments C] |

[1/2size Q] [Tournaments C] |
probably making 6 small Qs with 3 clans.
So only 2 games per template in Q.
best Q clan comes to C.
If C stays as it is. You would be able to reduce time at least by 25%.

Edited 10/3/2019 16:03:07

There is no more qualifiers, just C and D

Oh ok. My fault then. I did not inform well.

Improvement/Progression will never be found unless you take a risk.

Let's try 3 days 15 days bank time an attempt. After the first 3 games are delegated, we can use the "transfer window" as a break period and make changes if necessary or go back to the vacations in the worst case.

This will work well I imagine because from my experience of CL games, the first two games assigned to you go a quick pace but the 3rd and 4th almost go standstill. While 5th and 6th (end of CL) are at a fast pace again. The damage is done in the middle block of the assignment of games and with subs/no more vacations, games go back to normal pace.

The 15 days banked time and disabling of vacations will reduce the damage of the 3rd and 4th game block dramatically (potentially it could).

"@I Swear, a boot every once in a while is fine, but players constantly getting booted is no fun for all the clans, I think. As I am aware, I would want to have competitive games, not players getting booted." - Viking1007

You're acting like people will constantly boot if they don't get to use vacations. Do you see people getting booted "left and right" with regular games? I certainly don't. Its only the unreliable players that nobody should throw on a team, that boot regularly. This is without relying on vacations or banked time. So I really think your point is moot.

Banked timers are not mutually exclusive from competitive games. That's a false dichotomy you have there. I'm not going to continue arguing with a logical fallacy.

edit: name

Edited 10/3/2019 18:24:46

Feels like this subject is beaten to death. Personally I'm swayed by the "we're not trying to speed up clan league just make sure it ends on time" argument. 15 day boot is functionally 2 vacations which should be sufficient for most situations.

FYI, some clans would really like to know in which division they play next season before subscribing. Looks like that may not even happen before the registration window closes.

Is that reason enough to maybe have some measurement to speed up the end of each season?

Edited 10/3/2019 19:42:05

I don't know how many people commenting in this thread have played 3v3 games in clan league, but I have played at least 1 and sometimes 2 3v3 tournaments in Division A every season since CL8. I can tell you that every season there has been an issue with someone abusing vacations and a game being delayed for a month or more (admittedly sometimes it was me - I am not blameless in this). Whenever this happens, any enjoyment you might have had in that game is basically gone. Your communication rhythm with your teammates is disrupted. You have forgotten what is happening in the game. For me the result if that is that I don't even care what happens in the game anymore - I just want it to be over. Almost any solution is preferable to that.

+1 to 3 days boot and 15 days of banked time.

I also want to enjoy CL as well as do our best, having CL end when its scheduled to end(or as close to it).

As @Beren said; "Your communication rhythm with your teammates is disrupted." This makes the game less fun and doing all the effort of predicting and trying to make good moves are wasted effort because some want to delay a game, for the sake of delaying it(my own opinion. Some do need the extra time, 15 days are more than enough if stretched out over 6 months).

I understand real life is hectic, but that`s goes for most of us as well. Making CL go further than intended, only makes less player being able to play in time. + You will have teams getting "unfair" advantage by getting free wins, due players being active at the start, stop playing at the end and those who plays them are certain to get points(occurred in CL 10 and CL11 in the Q and C division).

I myself are quite happy with removing vacations and they often delays way more than needed for players(leading them to "abuse" them). I was close to use my first vacation this year for the first time since starting to play warlight(warzone) due getting operated at the hospital midway in CL, but ended up having it as a last option possible. As i was able to play 1 day after the operation. Im sure i was in a very good condition, compared to others that might have done a surgery. But i knew having a week would be at the most needed to at least take my turn(in 3v3 teams this would be even more easy due your teammates can work out the moves for you if needed and you can simply commit).

Again thats my own opinion, so go CL12 and hoping for a well structured CL and good fights with limited time(3 days). I also want to thank Cowbow and all other CL managers that takes up this subject and tries to improve it as its actually a key in how CL can heavy be affected negatively by the previous vacations(that havent worked as optimally).

"Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change"-Stephen Hawking