Doesn't the person/player have the ultimate say of joining or leaving a clan, unless he/she is kicked? So why are all discussing this calling each others as poachers?

Mike -

What is the point of that list? You are contending that MH Hunters is going to Division A, based on internal growth, and not taking people from other clans. Yet only 3 of those players you listed actually played in the CL (mind you, they did VERY well, and deserve praise):

Cluster, 9025201729, hobo

You should have just listed those 3 as examples of internal growth, and not tried to extend the "poaching is bad" argument.

pretty sure the mocking is happening because your so whiny and this all seems like MH was in a love relationship gone wrong, and cant accept that there former lover has moved on. Mike life is just uncertain,even if we institute forced marriage it won't change that

Edited 6/13/2017 18:08:34

Poaching is a subject which I would rather not write about. The reason why is because it's actually silly that poaching is even discussed and seen as a problem. If a clan leader wants to poach someone, then I don't understand why others would become jealous of that. The interferer between the poacher and the poached is the real problem. It's like when an employee wants to go higher up by getting hired by a manager who will pay 200% the salary of what he previously earned, but his ex employer doesn't want that and interferes.

Conclusion: The real problem is the interferer who's jealous of the poacher and the poached player.

Edited 6/13/2017 18:05:26

I will not react to the new remarks as this is just total non sense once again, waste of time and out of subject.

I feel we are forgetting how this discussion arrived and original subject has been diverted : it started in CL improvement suggestions. One of them was try to limit poaching, only to keep CL competitive for every clan, by allowing lower clans to benefit from their effort (recruiting, developping, and holding talents) and progress, vs clans holding divisions A (and B) seats for a while.

And if no blame towards poaching was ever made originally, as this has never been disallowed whatsoever by WL rules (which does not include anything about morale), CL panel has a chance to contribute to this goal and making CL more challenging : not by penalizing clans poaching, but by penalizing players failing to show loyalty to their clan.
Now, penalty suggested was 1 whole season benched before being allowed to play CL for the new clan, but this could be discussed further, for example capping those players to 1 template.
Also, this would not prevent poaching, for those who like it, it's not supposed to. It would only lower it, and make players think twice before changing clans. Clans which are not... well whatever, let's say socks, and deserve some respect.

There was nothing about whining, bitching, love affair, any Farah issue and I don't know what else. Those came from your creation, and always towards the same clan member(s). Either we try to debate in a constructive way, or we end this now and I can carry it on with ChisCMU -and a few others- in private as he seems the only one to show constructive arguments and respect in his posts. Is this really too much to ask, without some clan war taking over every thread ?

Edited 6/13/2017 22:00:58

would you try to explan in which way it is not moral behavior to poach?

That's out of subject but since I mentionned this myself it's only fair to explain if you are interested.

It seems quite common sense to me but if regarding clans it's not clear enough, I'll try to use other examples. But first of all, keep in mind that if something is not disallowed, doesn't mean that thing is ok with morale.

In soccer, some clubs feel morale require other clubs to contact the club owner of a player and reach an agreement on a transfer fee before discussing terms with the player. I see you coming, WL has no contract involved. Well that's not the point. The point is if clubs are not disallowed to contact players before their club owner, morale would require them to contact the club first.

In politics, there are abuse of system which are not known, so technically not forbidden by law, but are still against the morale. In my country, new laws are currently being discussed to prevent recently discovered abuses. Until we find new ones that population doesn't know of yet.

Anyway, this is it for me. I think I made the point I wanted to make, I wish anybody supporting this idea, outside of MH ideally, would express themselves. It does seem this is a bad idea according to current reactions, so I'll leave it there. But I'm still convinced this is the future of CL eventually, we may just not be ready for it yet. :-))

Edited 6/13/2017 22:19:48

you dont explain it at all, you just comes with two different examples that shows the that there is a difference between what is legal and that it does not make something right by default(morally). i get that, what i was more hinting at, was why you think this is morally wrong?

Edited 6/13/2017 22:38:06

Mike, do you know how many CL Master clan had won? 0. Since your argument was developed around the idea of domination of Master clan; it is kind of meaningless in that sense too.

It's morally wrong not towards the player involved, but towards his original clan. We can agree that it is assumed that every clan does not want to see any member leave for another clan.

Now from this statement, because the clan doesn't want to lose his player, and even though the clan has no right on the player, it was that clan that spotted the talent, recruited him, maybe developped his skills further, and probably enhanced the player experience on WL.

For all these reasons, respecting the clan wish seems what morale is here.

Now the question is : would morale be "violated" by the predator clan, or by the player agreeing to change clan ? Well, since my original suggestion doesn't care about the responsibility, and is not about the morale in first place, but about enhancing loyalty towards clans to serve lower clans interest and chance during CL seasons, I don't feel the need to get a headhache thinking of this further. If you want, fortget the morale aspect, and stick with the subject, "CL as a fair competition for every clan", or "how to make CL more fair than it is", considering strong clans start with strong advantages already : not only better talents, but also stronger popularity of the clan.

Edit : roux, I missed that indeed, thus can only agree with you here and congrat Masters for the remarkable job achieved. But I don't know how many clans have ruled Division A with 80% win rate in the past. Also, you just convinced me more that my suggestion may be too early, we'll have to see how clans evolved in the future. Reminder : most of you think clans don't last, other clans emerge. I feel Divsions will remain the same with a few exceptions only, and I could bet money on next CL's winners right now. That's not criticizing anyone.

Anyway, this is a lost cause already, nvm. gg ;)

Edited 6/13/2017 22:58:36

Sure, it hurts to know that your clan that you manage sucks hard enough that you can't keep the players you have; I understand; but I got over that a long time ago...

Anyway, it's not morally wrong in any way "to poach" - it's an offering of a different (better) WL clan experience, that the player wants. Ask not what your clanmates can do for your clan, ask what your clan can do for your clan members. I wholly second Semice on this.

Poaching is when your own clan sucks so bad it can't keep its own members from leaving.

At first, I thought this thread was about how "poaching" should be handled in CL8, but now I see that it's just M'Hunters up to their usual tricks.

I would like to express support to Mike in his proposal of 1 year benching in CL. I will repeat but CL shouls support and develop clan system not destroy. In football (European), basketball transfer rules mostly protect clubs and help to support club system. CL should be clan competition and respect clans. Not help "elite" clans look for talents and attract them. There are prestigious individual competitions like ladders, MDL or AWP, where individuals compete and clans dont matter. But CL is clan competition, so some transfer rules should be respected.

Edited 6/13/2017 23:10:50

Now from this statement, because the clan doesn't want to lose his player, and even though the clan has no right on the player, it was that clan that spotted the talent, recruited him, maybe developped his skills further, and probably enhanced the player experience on WL.

that someone dont want something does not have anything to do with morals, that has to do with interests. But in the second line i get confused? if they have no right to the player why should he not just leave if he want to? at least they need some sort or moral claim to their players, otherwise it can not be immoral. that is also what you continue to talk about though, that there is some sort of clam since they

spotted the talent, recruited him, maybe developped his skills further, and probably enhanced the player experience on WL

ofc there is the obvious problem in that they could just not have helped him in any way and that it would be impossible so asses in what degree if at all it happen, and if it was then ok for a player to change clan. this is also not the normal way we see things when it comes to humans, as you view obviously would entail that for example parents would have a moral clam over there own children since they help form them(and at a much bigger degree).

Now the question is : would morale be "violated" by the predator clan, or by the player agreeing to change clan

on the basis of your strongly anti individualistic thinking here, i would say that the ones in the morally wrong here is the original clan due to its limiting of the players freedom, that is, if you put an emphasis on autonomy as a moral good ofc.

this is ofc an online game, so this is not really serious, so i agree that we prehaps should not talk morals, and good the same as your arguments supports serfdom

Edited 6/13/2017 23:30:02

But CL is clan competition, so some transfer rules should be respected.

there is already transfer rules

Thank you Nemo. Don't worry they don't bash about ideas, just on who say them.

Жұқтыру, you're just a troll, as shown by your logo, but...

You may have missed it, 4 out of MH last 8 recruits are former MH re integrated in the clan, on their own wish. Loyalty is not exactly an issue for MH.
100% out of last 20 MH recruits (and could have carried on the list further) were either clanless or applied to MH on their own. MH has a philosophy of respecting other clans by not poaching their members. But straight away CL is not a fair competition for our kind of clan.

Bottom line : mind you, some people do care about fair competition and respect between clans, before their personal interest.

Current restrictions are more than enough. CL is just a "byproduct" of existence of clans, not the other way around. We are not professional athletes and clans don't pay us for playing.. Limiting people from doing what they want to do because of certain system do nothing good. If they want to switch clans, let them do it. If somene want to go to better clan to become better, it is only logical. If someone is approached by elite clan, it is natural to feel honored. We play competitive game, and CL is the most prestigious Warlight competition, so no wonder people want to make their clan as good as possible.
The whole discussion is ridiculous. You have just bunch of guys shaming other bunchs of guys for natural behaviour they both do. But the other bunch of guys is better at it, so let's denounce them, because if they are so good, there must be something inherently bad with what they do. So I will use negative word against them and I will feel better afterwards. Come on, what's the point in this? All you can get is stupid condemnation of human nature, and you will end up with factual judging yourself. What's any productive in this?

Edited 6/13/2017 23:38:20

MH has a philosophy of respecting other clans by not poaching their members.

But Mike, now you've confused me ... I mean, Master Farah just posted a screenshot of Norman encouraging MH to poach from other clans.

But ah! I see that this was from over a year ago - oh, so you guys must have had a Moment of Revelation, you became disgusted with your own Sin, and decided to be the Good Guys!

It all makes sense now - you were the Bad Guys, just like everyone else in this Moral Cesspit, but then you saw the Light and redeemed yourself. So, now you are Morally Pure and want to help us all atone for our Sins.

Got it. You are basically Jesus. Thanks man.

Edited 6/14/2017 00:05:00

I mean, Master Farah just posted a screenshot of Norman encouraging MH to poach from other clans.

Actually those people were clanless at the time, unless the AI in that message is AI from Blitz or I don't know about Sbirulino's pre-101st past.


Anyway I agree with psykkoman. Couldn't word it better.

Edited 6/14/2017 00:18:20

I think this is where it would be smart to just concede and minimize the damage,Mike. Think Norman gets that.

MH gets a lot of bad rep, more than it perhaps deserves. This thread did little to help that. Au contraire.