WG and SNinja are two independent clans, they're not brother/sister clan so please can you stop putting these two clans together. It has no relevance to the discussion here. I've explained above why they're not.

In order for a precedence to be set, a decision would have to be made. There's been no decision made regarding Brother/Sister clan in the same decision, If there was a precedence set, why do you think such a discussion has been on-going for 2/3 seasons. If any precedence was to be set, it would be on the side of Brother/Sister clans should NOT be in the same decision hence why Outlaws replaced 101st all that time ago.

Which brings us here to now. In the context of division A, we have 7 completely independent clans. If 101st/Lynx are in the same division, which are the same clan that would bring serious stipulation to the competitive aspect of the league. You bring up the point, where do we draw up the line? As far as I'm concerned 101st/Lynx are the only Brother/Sister clan in the league, who else does this decision imply?

It's common sense, you don't include a feeder and a main clan which are fundamentally acting as one clan. Simply diverting saying "Oh well where do you even draw the line" is not a good reason. It sums it all up.

I think we should make a rule to make it explicit, who's the brother and who's the sister

^ please be sure to accommodate other sibling clan scenarios too, for gender-neutrality. And what about cousin clan scenarios like Lynx and Outlaws or estranged-stepparent scenarios like Master and Mother?

There is a lot of ground the rules will have to cover.

WG and SNinja are two independent clans, they're not brother/sister clan so please can you stop putting these two clans together. It has no relevance to the discussion here. I've explained above why they're not.

It's your opinion that they're not. It may be mine that they are. There is no objective standard depicting which clans are brother/sister clans. That is what I mean by drawing a line.

If any precedence was to be set, it would be on the side of Brother/Sister clans should NOT be in the same decision hence why Outlaws replaced 101st all that time ago.

That does not at all set the precedence against brtoher/sister clans. The only precedence this sets is that if a clan splits up, one clan gets to keep a division spot and the other one has to start from the bottom. Let's say Blitz moves to division A and then splits up into 7 clans. We obviously can't occupy 7 slots in A. This is why only one clan is in said division; not because it had to do anything with brother/sister clans.

In the context of division A, we have 7 completely independent clans.

Says you. Again, there is no objective standard.

If 101st/Lynx are in the same division, which are the same clan that would bring serious stipulation to the competitive aspect of the league.

101st are not the same clan. And what "serious stipulation to the competitive aspect of the league" would it bring us, exactly? I've stated already that collusion between clans will be met with bans. Do you think two clans in division A would risk it all for an advantage over other clans?

As far as I'm concerned 101st/Lynx are the only Brother/Sister clan in the league, who else does this decision imply?

Blitz and Masters, obviously. We taught Masters europe 3v3.

It's common sense, you don't include a feeder and a main clan which are fundamentally acting as one clan.

It's not common sense. It's an issue we can't simply write a rule for. Who is going to decide what a brother/sister clan is? What should be viewed as a brother/sister clan? Does me having an alt in stats now make that clan our sister clan? A lot of players moved forwards and back again between Masters and Blitz. Are we brother/sisters? If so, we're already breaking your suggested rule. If not, what does constitute as having said relationship? And if you come up with a comprehensible standard, how do we check it? What if 101st says they broke all ties with Lynx, but for some reason their players keep joining Lynx when they're really good.

All in all, having a rule about all this because of your hatred towards Lynx and 101st, would complicate everything: it's not going to happen.

ew.. you know the more complex you make it, the less clans will join coming leagues?

Platinum never disappoints bringing that topic back up every single clan league. You have to admire his dedication!

There is no objective standard depicting which clans are brother/sister clans.

The sister clan's sole purpose is to feed the brother clan. 101st to Lynx. We all have a good observation skills, you can see this from the outside that's the case. Again, point out two clans that you believe are brother/sister and draw out your "Where do we draw the line card". The WG/SNinja is not even close for a case which are all I've heard so far.

Did you intend to say there was a precedent set for brother/sister clan already made? That's why I bring up the Outlaws/101st decision. I don't hold any relevance to that either, I only bring this up because I think you said there was a precedent made for brothers/sister clan, when there isn't.

101st are not the same clan. And what "serious stipulation to the competitive aspect of the league" would it bring us, exactly? I've stated already that collusion between clans will be met with bans. Do you think two clans in division A would risk it all for an advantage over other clans?

Please explain why in your opinion as an ex-Lynx member they're not the same clan. I'd be intrigued to hear.

Says you. Again, there is no objective standard.

None of the clans say they have participation/partnership with any other clan in there clan page. The only one that does is 101st/Lynx. On paper and on theory, you can't write a rule to fit each scenario. I accept that flaw and it's why we're in this debate. I'm of the opinion that you can make a very good judgement by using one's own personal judgement on it. Interview the members, use good sensible judgement and you should make the right decision. It's why the ethics panel worked.

I don't hate Lynx/101st, I simply hate the idea of main clan and feeder clan in the same division. I think this perception is created to discredit me, if you want to go for that perception go for it. I don't care at this point.

While Lynx and 101st do indeed work together on alot of different items Clan League is not one of them.

Edited 9/6/2020 18:15:00

I think ignoring the drawing the line part, my biggest objection is it complicates an already complicated set of rules for the league.

I'm for let them play if it comes to it, and if they are found to be colluding, drop a ban on both clans.

I'm for let them play if it comes to it, and if they are found to be colluding, drop a ban on both clans.

Nah, can't ban entire clans for 2-3 members colluding, it would be very unfair.
Permanent ban for the players doing it though, no matter what clans they might join later on.

EDIT:
And of course 0 points to them on all the slots they play in (without the option to sub out).
Should be enough of a deterrence, yes?

Edited 9/6/2020 18:28:53

None of the clans say they have participation/partnership with any other clan in there clan page. The only one that does is 101st/Lynx.

On a serious note though, the decision has been made. I hope I've made my reasons clear. Trust me when I say that if we see any collusion, there will be bans.

Fair enough. Your league, your rules. I'll respect it but it's a poor decision. This fundamentally increases the chances of collusion, if you're allowing main and feeder clan into the same division. I don't understand how from a perspective from a league organiser this is a positive development. At the minimum, I don't understand why you can't delegate their fixtures to play at the first round, costs nothing and would address the main concerns. It's just poor. What other league has this principle even? It makes no sense to me.

Ultimately, Although the threat of banning isn't a good reason to bring in such a rule, I do hope your strategy of threatening to ban is enough to deter cases of collusion. In my opinion, over the long run I don't think so. Time will tell I suppose. Thanks for replying.

Edited 9/6/2020 19:15:17

Depends on how big it is, but yeah, 0 tolerance policy regardless. Honestly this would be policy for all clans/players regardless of affiliation.

"None of the clans say they have participation/partnership with any other clan in there clan page. The only one that does is 101st/Lynx."

WG and SNinja used to dedicate a portion of their clan page to each other. It was a joke, but could easily be taken seriously. Especially since at that point the clans shared everything from a discord to a PR league together. They have since distanced themselves in the public eye though.

FCC/Discovery is another sibling clan as well, and probably more likely to play in the same division than 101st and lynx.

CORP and TJC were close clans up until their merger in late CL10. Both clans also shared several alts between the clans.

Masters/Apps similarly developed like 101st/lynx though outside of 2 players moving up early on, the clans were run independently with the only real things connecting us being our friendship and hatred for each other.

Avengers and The Wizards were brother clans much in the same way and even played in the same division together.

Actually, the only relation between CORP and TJC was that some losers were members of both clans. The clans themselves never really did anything together before they decided to merge.

@cowboy
Nah, the shared P/R league still exists, reza has just been too lazy to organize the next season so it has been on a pause for a while now.
We also never really shared a discord together so that has hardly changed either.
And for the "used to dedicate portion of their clan page to each other" the "currently slaughtering WG in clan league" wouldn't really have been funny after cl 10 :p

Nah, it was "If you aren't skilled enough for 'x' join our sister clan 'y'"

And I don't remember which discord it was, but there used to be dedicated roles to WG and SNinja members.

While it is a weak correlation, I agree, I personally don't find it any less likely that a clan with y'alls type of relationship wouldn't do the same thing.

Nah, can't ban entire clans for 2-3 members colluding, it would be very unfair.
Permanent ban for the players doing it though, no matter what clans they might join later on.

I don't see that as harsh. Ban both clans and if players who weren't directly involved want to play Clan League in the future they have to join a new clan.

I still can't get over the fact that were having this discussion before 101st has even promoted... Big waste of breath imo, since it will certainly come up again if they do.

@TLA LND

Rules of CL Drama:

1) First Rule of CL Drama: You do talk about CL Drama
2) Second Rule of CL Drama: You do talk about CL Drama
3) Third Rule of CL Drama: Someone yells "Be reasonable!," goes on vacation, or quits being CL organizer the CL Drama keeps going!
4) Fourth Rule of CL Drama: Only as many people that can be dragged into the CL Drama can be dragged into the CL Drama
5) Fifth Rule of CL Drama: As many CL Dramas as possible at a time.
6) Sixth Rule of CL Drama: No personal insults, no harassment.
7) Seventh Rule of CL Drama: The CL Drama will go on as long is has to.
8) Eight Rule of CL Drama: If this is your first time in CL you will witness drama.

Edited 9/7/2020 01:50:41