Stalling & Consequences: 10/23/2018 18:49:58 |
The Joey
Level 59
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Will everyone please put away their pitchforks and stop attacking alexclusive? At the end of the day, alexclusive brings up undeniable point. It is impossible for a third party to know if a player takes a long time because they are stalling, or because they are in a tough spot and think they have a chance to win if they play well. Further, a player lacks the full information to be certain about the conditions of his opponent. Thus, it is always much while reviewing the history of a game to see when a player has lost, than when a player is actually playing the game.
Ethically, I don't think a player should stall. But at the same time its not against the rules, and until it is against the rules, anyone who claims it is wrong to stall is simply trying to enforce their own arbitrary relative moral values about how this game should be played onto other players who may or may not agree with them (this could be different for clans, or private tournaments who make their own rules or standards, which is a perfectly legitimate thing to do). I do not like playing stallers, but it is my belief that I shouldn't try to enforce my own relative values onto others.
So instead of trying to publicly shame people for not living and playing this game the way you want them too, can we just all take a chill pill and play a few Quick-matches while we wait for them to get booted, take their turn, or surrender?
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Stalling & Consequences: 10/23/2018 19:03:11 |
(deleted)
Level 62
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@The Joey If everybody was to stall, the ladders would be essentially unplayable and stalling, in general, is bad etiquette and it's a rare occurrence because there are people willing to give you a hard time over it. There is forcing your values on someone and protecting the integrity of the game as Tacky says.
I'll look over the past 30 messages soon hopefully, It's amazing how popular I am! I was mentioned so many times!
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Stalling & Consequences: 10/23/2018 19:17:48 |
Njord
Level 63
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thats not true......its like you dont know that things on discord and in warzone games are time stamped
Edited 10/23/2018 19:18:51
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Stalling & Consequences: 10/23/2018 19:21:23 |
Njord
Level 63
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all the screenshots are already in the chat in ollies posts
Edited 10/23/2018 19:28:09
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Stalling & Consequences: 10/23/2018 19:24:05 |
Soraγππ‘ππ¦γ
Level 57
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@thejoey there's nothing wrong with enforcing good sportsmanship-like conduct in the community. it's up to the leaders to set a good example for the players under them. this thread was not to attack alex, i made the thread, and i thought the evidence was a little shaky (altho ollie cleared it up)
i do not mean to come off offensive or aggressive, but the honest truth is, stalling is unsportsmanlike and such behavior should be penalized. if not by Fizzer than by the community.
edit: just to re-iterate, for joey and anyone else, this thread had nothing to do with alex upon its creation. it has escalated due to alex trying to defend himself, which is fair, but in this situation has turned out badly.
Edited 10/23/2018 19:29:53
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Stalling & Consequences: 10/23/2018 19:32:02 |
Njord
Level 63
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just to clarify, i'm not here because of the stalling, im here since alex for some reason cant stop lying while being laughable bad at it, and i find it amusing.....
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Stalling & Consequences: 10/23/2018 19:40:32 |
The Joey
Level 59
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@Sora, I am not against you, or having this conversation. I think stalling is an important thing to discuss and talk about. As Platinum points out it does have negative consequences for the ladder. What I am speaking out against is mob justice, and singling out individual players.
As the saying goes, 'don't hate the player, hate the game.' If we don't like the way someone plays, but its within the confines of the game, its fine to work to change the game. But lets not attack individuals that play within the rules. Sora, you are trying to change the game, that's great. People attacking alexclusive, are using a mob to attack a single player. I don't believe that is okay.
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Stalling & Consequences: 10/23/2018 19:52:07 |
Toua Tokuchi
Level 54
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Back to topic, can we take 20% or more armies (and/or)income difference and change in game play speed while losing as stalling? I remember some players writing in game chat asking why're the other team players playing slow when game is lost and some players surrender while the players who stall don't surrender. They know well what they're doing (intentionally gaming the ladder for ratings or pushing a loss for a later time), and don't worry about being respectful to others (time in this case).
Of-course "We can't force them to take turns" is the excuse used so far, but since Seasonal Ladder has a rule to avoid manipulating ratings by force finish method-other ladders should also have some sort of rule to avoid manipulating ratings.
Last thing I heard, Beren and Math Wolf were working on an algorithm to find out stalling-which apparently needs lot of data to train (probably a neural network I assume). If someone can code/make this algorithm, this will be good tool.
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Stalling & Consequences: 10/23/2018 19:56:46 |
Soraγππ‘ππ¦γ
Level 57
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it is a tough topic because people have come back from serious deficits. (recently i won a 2v3 on the 3v3 ladder, which we were down 20% from the start to say the least LOL)
Ofcourse force finish is an obvious solution but it would be very bad if someone felt like they could've won a game that was force finished ebcause they ran into a stack for ex.
Maybe there is a way to weight time spent so if you're taking a long time in multiple turns its more likely to be force finished? other things to consider is comparing speeds in other games (playing fast in some games and slow in others), income and army count, and neutral territories left (so people don't try to run away with a extra-large stack)
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Stalling & Consequences: 10/23/2018 20:02:44 |
Njord
Level 63
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Edited 10/23/2018 20:03:53
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Stalling & Consequences: 10/23/2018 20:04:15 |
Soraγππ‘ππ¦γ
Level 57
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just an FYI this thread isnt about witch hunting... try a different thread for that pls
we are here to provide an example of acceptable behavior and try to influence more sportsmanship in the community
edit: and perhaps, even, to find a solution to stalling and the consequences taht should be involved.
edit2: @rento if everyone played all their turns 2d23h it will be a very long run and take forever to finish 20 games to rank, perhaps to the extent your games will start expiring i dont understand your argument
Edited 10/23/2018 20:06:24
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Stalling & Consequences: 10/23/2018 20:11:02 |
The Joey
Level 59
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Maybe we could use a statistical algorithm to 'flag' players for stalling. Create some sort of time series model to predict if a player should surrender. Perhaps using variables like the per turn income difference between players, total armies controlled, turn number, ELO, some sort of regressive term based on a players past history, etc... Then use a prediction interval, if a player falls outside of that interval they can be 'flagged.' This is just the start of an idea, but I think it wouldn't be that hard to implement if it something people want.
Edit: I think interval is the wrong term, maybe more of a test.
Edited 10/23/2018 20:11:57
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Stalling & Consequences: 10/23/2018 20:13:16 |
The Joey
Level 59
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Better yet, implement a program to give a prediction if a player will win or lose. Than when the program is something like 95% confident a player will lose it can give a flag.
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