Ohhh got it. So are we trying to determine where Small Earth Wasteland and Small Earth Auto Dist would fall on that graph?

Well I don't think we are, except if knyte is doing something with the seasonal game data.
That being said, I'm most certain it'd be in the middle as well. Since it is arguably the most standard template out of those, you can assume that more SE skill correlates to more skill on all these other templates. As I said, it's not really meaningful, it doesn't really give an idea about the skill cap (which all the time was the debate here) - unless I drastically misinterpret this.

Edited 6/19/2021 09:16:20

There's all sorts of methodological flaws with that graph and the data is years old. I will do something with the seasonal data when the season ends.

We could do something similar to factor analysis, is what I was thinking.

And yes, it has nothing to do with skill cap. That can be measured differently, directly off of seasonal data. I was just responding to Aura's point by highlighting an assumption we have yet to confirm.

Edited 6/19/2021 15:04:42

Zero, Octane does play a fair bit of SE. He commonly plays large coin games on it. But yes, Octane is a very well rounded player so it's no surprise he will succeed at almost anything he tries.

Beep, you might wanna look a little harder before promoting that map, because Strat MME is at the very center and not ME :)

Edited 6/19/2021 17:21:16

yeah, but MME is in the middle because it's basic and simple, Greece LD is in the middle because it's a great indicator of skill and translates well to other templates

Edited 6/19/2021 17:30:50

I had to comment on the following quote
"shamu might be a great apple farmer, nauz a great orange farmer, but I don't see evidence that points to either one being the better fruit farmer overall. And sure, maybe shamu should try his hand at oranges, but ultimately the best way to gauge fruit farming skill would be to have them both try to cultivate cherries, mangos, grapefruit, peaches, etc. as well."

So let us use your new manta for judging other linked events.

The winner of the Epson Derby this year was Adayar (This is a Group 1 flat horse race in England open to three-year-old colts and fillies.
The winner of The Grand National this year was won by Minella Times, trained by Henry de Bromhead and ridden by Rachael Blackmore, who became the first female jockey to win the Grand National.

These are both Horse races, one on the flat one over challenging fencing. Are we to say the Grand National winner is less worthy of being a champion because it could not compete on the flat against Adayar? Likewise IS the Derby winner a pointless win because it could not compete with Minella over jumps?
We all know the answer. It is a facile statement to begrudge Shamu his walkover because he didn't play 10 other maps you have decided are more important. Come on give him a break. He has behaved with decorum
CAB

Captain, I was with you until you said this:

CAB

I don't think I should have to remind you of the no-politics rule on this site. There's no reason to insert politics or hurl profanity at our hard-working police in the middle of every ordinary conversation, although it's relieving that you apparently don't want to insult all cops.

These are both Horse races, one on the flat one over challenging fencing. Are we to say the Grand National winner is less worthy of being a champion because it could not compete on the flat against Adayar? Likewise IS the Derby winner a pointless win because it could not compete with Minella over jumps?
We all know the answer. It is a facile statement to begrudge Shamu his walkover because he didn't play 10 other maps you have decided are more important. Come on give him a break. He has behaved with decorum
CAB

Now this is just putting words in my mouth. I never intended to insinuate that Small Earth was somehow inferior. I just made a criticism towards sammu for trying to state that "small earth stresses the fundamentals of the game" moreso than other templates.

My general viewpoint is that a template specialist is a template specialist, and while a template specialist deserves respect on their template, I don't think that respect should necessarily translate to respect of general warzone skill.

If anything, I am being more critical of Nauz than sammu here, since I am more aware of his skill level on templates other than the one he specializes on. I certainly can respect nauz as an orange farmer, but that doesen't mean I will respect him as a fruit farmer.

Just like I said to Jacob as well, quote: I can respect you as an apple farmer, sure, but if you are looking to be respected as a fruit farmer in general, then I can't, since you seem fairly untested in that respect.

It's exactly the same.

Perhaps there are some players that don't respect small earth players. I am not one of them. While I certainly feel like the odds of luck deciding the outcome of a single game are slightly higher with SE templates than others, ultimately the relative skill of players on a template can be found out by playing a series of games (e.g. best of 11) or so on, much as with any other template.

If huddyj was able to be a perennial first place finisher on the rather competitive small earth promotion/relegation league, then there was obviously something he was able to do more skillfully than his opponents. I know the SE P/R league uses a different template (the "old" SE template), but I think SEAD/SE1W probably fall under a similar sort of blanket in terms of a skill scene.

Edited 6/19/2021 23:13:31

And if you are wondering about my phrasing about this:

All I see in this thread here are two players with big egos trying to bash each other's ability - and some players are taking it as an opportunity to bash nauz because he resigned on ONE template. shamu might be a great apple farmer, nauz a great orange farmer, but I don't see evidence that points to either one being the better fruit farmer overall. And sure, maybe shamu should try his hand at oranges, but ultimately the best way to gauge fruit farming skill would be to have them both try to cultivate cherries, mangos, grapefruit, peaches, etc. as well.

It could be just a misread on your part. Maybe it seems to you that im suggesting that shamu needs to attempt to farm oranges because an orange farmer is somehow superior to an apple farmer. This is not what I intended.

This originates from the observation that shamu is the apple (small earth) farmer, nauzhor the orange (MME) farmer, and that the two competed in terms of apple farming.

Regardless of how this came to be (nauz declaring apple farming to be "easy"), my affront deals moreso with shamu's proclamation that apple farming somehow "stresses the fundamentals of fruit farming" more than any other type of fruit farming.

The reason why I made the suggestion that shamu maybe should try his hand at orange farming is that would give us a better idea of the relative skill of the two players, instead of shamu just insinuating that nauz's fundamentals are more flawed than his only after a competition which suited the strengths of shamu. After all, we had the orange farmer compete in apple farming, but we never saw the apple farmer try to compete in orange farming.

I hope that makes more sense.

Edited 6/19/2021 23:08:50

@Hades

Also, there's no need for these challenges, if sanmu or anyone else wants to prove they are good at (real) SE then they should join the P/R league https://www.warzone.com/Forum/537328-small-earth-promotionrelegation-league-season-22

or the seasonal ladder for these SE settings.

The point was that Johnny hates SE, thus he's not going to join an SE league or ladder, so the challenge was necessary in that sense. He was making a concession just playing SE at all.

^Thank you for clarifying that Krinid. I think he probably missed a lot of the opening.

I completely agree with the not bullying Nauz thing, because bullying is wrong in general. But this challenge literally started because Nauz went on for how he'd love to take coins from me in the thing I'm good at, and how he'd easily beat me in Small Earth, as well as insulting me and my friends who play it.....So I think it's pretty clear that there was cause for this match to happen.