To defend my boi Nauz here:

1: Arrow you're not a Div A player.

Not even by a long shot. GG, the bouncing clan of CL, does not belong in Div A (see CL results past seasons for reference). With that being said, there are some Div A-caliber players in GG, but you're not one of them.


2: SE is not Strategic (in my opinion)

The template is boring, grindy, and relys more on luck than on skill. You can challenge me on that if you want to. I reckon an SE specialist might have picked up a thing or two on the template, but I personally doubt it takes a good player more than 3-4 games to pick up on most of those tricks (given they try), unless you compare them to the very best (meaning Hergul on SE, which isn't an "SE-specialist").

3: Nauz vs Shamu had more to it than phobos vs Nauz.

I only partly agree on this one though: NS was about if SE can be called truly strategic and to see if SE specialists should be respected. NP, on the other hand, was to see how much we could shit on Nauz/Phobos. The main problem was just that most of us cared more about the latter.

I mean, I certainly care more about the games vs Phobos. I've played thousands of games on Strat 1v1, it's something I've actually tried to excel at, and I am confident in my ability to play at a high level when I put in effort.

SE1W? I don't even care enough about the template to want to play it unless there's some sort of large incentive to do so. Even then, if the incentive isn't big enough to make me want to play it enough to master it then trying to compete on it is pretty meaningless. I'd literally have deleted the map from the game completely years ago if given the opportunity. I think it serves as a barrier to entry for superior maps and templates. Rise of Rome would be gone as well. They're both overplayed maps that I feel harm the community merely by existing, since the more people there are playing them, the less there are playing templates that actually deserve being played.

Edited 7/6/2021 02:26:05

Arrow is not division A level.

SE is strategic, just not as much as other more in-depth templates.

SE and RoR are both maps, not templates. A very strategic templates can probably be designed for them.

Masters can be toxic and we love or hate them for it but ultimately it doesn't matter.

Masters make the best underwear.

Jeff would boot.


These are my conclusions. I hope you agree.

Lol this is pretty funny saying no one from Div A values SE.

Just off the top of my head, me, AI, hergul, Muli, Octane, Rheumakay, Rakleader, ADHDnL, 89thlap…

I think you think you have nothing to learn which is why you try to dismiss things you don’t like. You do.

And about deleting SE and RoR. There is much to learn from both maps/templates. What actually holds people back from strategic gameplay is attitude: not wanting or willing to learn.

Edited 7/6/2021 04:00:54

Not at all. The problem is you, and others, like to take statements made, and exaggerate them.

I didn't say it requires no skill. I said it has a lower skill ceiling.

I didn't say no one in a Div A clan enjoys the template, I said it isn't valued enough to make the CL template roster.

You're too smart to be making the same lousy strawman arguments as morons like Arrow. It should be beneath you, but evidently it isn't.

Let's take something someone said, misconstrue it to make it seem super extreme, and then attack that exaggerated statement, even though it's effectively a parody of what was actually said.

Seriously people, this is not how this shit should work.

Edited 7/6/2021 04:02:20

“No one in Div A rates that as a template”

*edits to add time and date stamp so lazy people like my can see if he's right or not*

Edited 7/6/2021 04:05:51

> What actually holds people back from strategic gameplay is attitude: not wanting or willing to learn.

When you play SE, and nothing but SE (or RoR) that does in fact diminish your capability of learning, and interest in learning, other templates.

The reason I'd delete them is NOT because they are skill-less and there's nothing to learn in them. Thanks for trying to speak for me though, I greatly appreciate it. My disdain for them is because they serve as traps that prevent players from branching out into other maps and templates.

As for your previous post, I'm going to assume you skimmed over the thread and took one line out of context rather than actually reading what was said multiple times, because it's the only possible way for you to actually think that's what I was saying.

I'd repeatedly stated that it not being in CL is evidence of there being a lack of interest in the template compared to other more highly valued templates. It's obvious that I don't actually think there's not one single player in a Div A clan that enjoys playing the template.

Edited 7/6/2021 04:24:00

Just off the top of my head, me, AI, hergul, Muli, Octane, Rheumakay, Rakleader, ADHDnL, 89thlap…

Well said, and that's not even including JV, Hades, ACL Tears, Wini, Ursus, Guest, Phobos, alexclusive, Neal, Kryzstof, Kurdistan49

Edited 7/7/2021 12:03:17

@Ralph please read my post again. I never said i was a div A player(though i will bo soon :P). I said that many people from GG would rate SE as stratergic--- PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER

"I said that many people from GG would rate SE as stratergic--- PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER"
- Arrow838

Which players are you talking about? As of now, 7th of July, there is not a single player from GG with more than 3 wins in Div A.
A 3-3 result should, by definition, be considered average and no GG player can guarantee that they outperformed that yet. If you also consider the fact that an average Div A clan would be able to stay afloat in Div A (as the average placement would be 4th), your statement becomes even less logical. I guess I would rather have the EQ of a master than the IQ of someone from Excel.


"I am in GG(which is div A) and I rate SE1W as a template" and "I never said i was a div A player" - also Arrow838

While you dont explicitly say that "you're a div A player" you heavily imply it in the earlier post. I think that is clear for all to see.


"I never said i was a div A player(though i will bo soon :P)- Arrow838 yet again

In two CL seasons? Or are you planning to jump ship on GG? I highly doubt you will be playing in Div A in the near future, but feel free to prove me wrong :) The more great players the merrier.

- Ralph, debunking rubbish and nonsense since 2021

@Ralph, Nauz had said that anyone from a div A clan(which doesnt mean that the player must be worthy for a div A clan) wouldnt rate SE as a stratergic map. And last i checked, GG was a div A clan

Ralph brings up a critical matter, can Arrow's claim even be true?

I said that many people from GG would rate SE as stratergic--- PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER

To analyse this, we first need a list of all the players in GG who are "WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER".

Going through GG I would count:

Mifran
Jake
linberson
JV
Ollie
ADHDnl
MisterT
FlyingBender
Mike

My intuition is if 7/9 of these players thought that SE1W was strategic then that would be enough to back up Arrow's claim that it's "many people from GG", and this is quite possible.

So, in conclusion, it remains possible that Arrow's claim is true.

- Quicksilver, fact-checking the fact-checkers since 2021

@Quicksliver, you forgot Nature (https://www.warzone.com/Profile?p=6580217405)

Sometimes I wonder if Quicksilver is the mastermind and we're all just puppets in her sick game.

Also

My disdain for them is because they serve as traps that prevent players from branching out into other maps and templates.

Awww Nauz, buddy. You're telling me all this time, you just wanted to play me in other templates?? Aww, you just had to ask :3 you silly goose

Edited 7/7/2021 12:18:57

I really hate the fact that i must agree with a masterling,but i guess it's the exception of the rule here...
So,long story short,too much discussion about a small map,made for the newcomers to learn the basics of this game,that is not even in the last CL tournaments.If there are many divA players that really consider SE as a strategic map,then why is not back in CL..?Maybe coz there are too many other maps that are way more strategic than SE..?Just asking.........

Name me anyone who would want SE as a CL-template. There are levels of strategic templates: templates that are robust enough to be included in CL, semi-strategic templates played mostly on MTL, and then SE-level templates that require some brain but do not even qualify for MTL. There is a reason why SE has never been on the MTL. Not to speak of CL. From what I gather, Arrow is implying SE is strategic enough to be even included on CL. And then using "appeal to authority" by invoking a list of his clanmates who are apparently " PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER" which is demonstrably false. Those are a list of people way better than your average strategic player but they are not "WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER". Otherwise, they should be killing it this CL shouldn't they?

Edited 7/7/2021 13:03:24

I like how, in the absence of Phobos playing his games, this thread has become a free for all of people shitting on each other lmao

> I said that many people from GG would rate SE as stratergic--- PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER

GG doesn't have many people way better than average Div A. If they did they wouldn't have frequently relegated out of A.

> Going through GG I would count:

Mifran
Jake
linberson
JV
Ollie
ADHDnl
MisterT
FlyingBender
Mike


This is super generous IMO.

I don't think any of those are way better than average Div A. Some are better than average, others are, about average. Note that when I say Div A, I mean players that PLAY in Div A, not people who are merely members of clans which are in Div A.

Mifran, Jake, Ollie, MisterT are probably better than average in Div A. The rest are probably close to average in Div A. ADHDnl, Bender and linberson I'd personally probably rate as below average even.

ie. Lets look at their actual Div A performances.

Season 14:
Europe team: 1-3
Europe Magnum: 2-3
Final Earth: 0-2
Guiroma: 1-2
Landria Earth: 3-0
Malvia: 2-3
Strat ME: 2-3
Guiroma: 1-3
Biomes: 1-5
French Brawl: 2-3
Bork: 1-4

Total: 16-31 34% winrate
Breakdown per supposedly 'way above average' player:

Mifran: 3-6
Jake: 2-3
linberson: 2-5
JV: 2-5
ADHDnl: 2-3

Not one of them has a winning record in Div A this season.

Same is true for Nature, who Arrow suggested be included:
He's 5-7

Nature might be way above average AT Landria. But that's really the only tournament GG isn't a punching bag in.

Edited 7/7/2021 15:46:52

My good friend and fellow debunker, Quicksilver, brings up an important point in his rebuttal:

To analyse this, we first need a list of all the players in GG who are "WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER".

In arrow838's own words, there are

many people from GG [...] WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER

But this brings up an important question: What defines a player WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER?

1.1 Assumptions:
I assume that "PEOPLE" refers to players of this game, and that "BETTER" refers to their in-game skill. While there are "PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER" outside of this game, such as Mother Theresa and Oprah Winfrey, I fail to see how their traits would be relevant in the evaluation of whether or not SE is strategic or not, and I also fail to see their interest in the subject. Thus, the following response will only focus on perceived in-game skill, and not on other traits and accomplishments.

1.2 Definition of DIV A PLAYER:
In order to figure out what defines "PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER" we first have to decide which characteristics are required in order to be considered a DIV A PLAYER.
After doing a quick survey, I've gathered one key trait:

1: They need to have played at least 1 slot in Div A

For the sake of simplicity I have only considered the current season of Clan League, as the statement was given in present-tense by Arrow838 (also I only had the CL14 sheet easily available).

1.3 Definition of WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER:
Average is, per definition, a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data. Consequently, an average performance in Div A would be 3-3. I have chosen this value, 3-3, as it would be the central tendency if each player had the same skill and each of the games could be considered a 50/50 coin-toss.

Using common sense, which can be difficult to come across on online forums, and surveys, I have come to the conclusion that a performance on a slot in Div A can be put in the following tiers:

0-6: "Go Back To B"-tier
1-5: "What checkmqte thought HAWKS mvp would perform"-tier
2-4: "Below average, and proud of it"-tier
3-3: "Average"-tier
4-2: "Above average"-tier
5-1: "WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER"-tier
6-0: "Super Mega OP Chad"-tier

For players with more slots than one you can simply multiply the values with the amount of slots and figure out which tier you belong in. Keep in mind that these values are considered the upper limit, so a 7-5 or a 10-8 performance would be considered "Above average" and a 9-3 or a 13-5 considered "WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER" for the sake of leniency.

1.4 Fact-checking Quicksilver's list of PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER:

Mifran:

Current Performance: 3-6
Highest Possible Tier: Average
Lowest Possible Tier: Below average, and proud of it

Jake

Current Performance: 2-3
Highest Possible Tier: Average
Lowest Possible Tier: Below average, and proud of it

linberson

Current Performance: 2-5
Highest Possible Tier: Above average
Lowest Possible Tier: What checkmqte thought HAWKS mvp would perform

JV

Current Performance: 2-5
Highest Possible Tier: Above average
Lowest Possible Tier: What checkmqte thought HAWKS mvp would perform

Ollie

Current Performance: Not participating
Highest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player
Lowest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player

ADHDnl

Current Performance: 2-3
Highest Possible Tier: Average
Lowest Possible Tier: Below average, and proud of it

MisterT

Current Performance: Not participating
Highest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player
Lowest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player

FlyingBender

Current Performance: Not participating
Highest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player
Lowest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player

Mike

Current Performance: Not participating
Highest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player
Lowest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player

As you can see, not a single player falls in under the WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER category/tier, which would mean that no such player exists in GG based on current performance. However, as Thrall and Nature are also Div A players I believe these should be considered as well:

Thrall:

Current Performance: 5-3
Highest Possible Tier: WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER
Lowest Possible Tier: Average

Nature

Current Performance: 5-7
Highest Possible Tier: Average
Lowest Possible Tier: Below average, and proud of it

1.5 Conclusion:
Considering this, GG might have one player who is WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER, should Thrall win his 4 last games. If he deems SE to be strategic, then

many people from GG [...] WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER

would still be false, but if Arrow had said

one person from GG [...] WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER

then that would've been true.

- Ralph, fact-checking the fact-checking fact-checkers since 2021

Edited 7/7/2021 15:54:27