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INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/16/2021 22:57:01


l4v.r0v 
Level 59
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This thread is intended to clear up some questions about INSS bonus systems and why the 5.08 update breaks them. For clarification, these are the pertinent items from the 5.08 change log:
- Idle levels 14: Removed a duplicate bonus in Reconquest and Rise and Fall levels.
- Map design: If a new map has multiple bonuses that define the exact same territories, it will now notify you of this and let you fix it before submitting.
So, to clear things up, this means that, if your map has Bonus 1 and Bonus 2 and both bonuses have the same set of territories (say territories A, B, C, D, and E), you will no longer be able to submit that map. This change happened because such bonuses caused trouble for Idle.

Why is this a problem? Why would you ever need two bonuses that map to the same territories? Why can't you just combine the two? Shouldn't this always be an accident if it happens? No.

To understand why, let's look at an actual map with intentional duplicate bonuses, Gotham City (https://www.warzone.com/Map/32203-Gotham-City). This map has an innovative bonus system called INSS, short for Issander's New Strategic System. In INSS, you can get (positive or negative) income for having partial control of a bonus. For example, if you control 3 territories in a Riddler bonus on Gotham City, you get +1 income. It doesn't matter which two!:


Okay, so we have 194 territories in Gotham... and 699 bonuses! Why? Because that's how INSS is implemented behind the scenes. It uses some clever math to make its bonus system work without being unbearably tedious to create- basically, the actual income you get comes from the sum of bonuses you own. Don't worry too much about the details, just know that the INSS bonuses look like this under the hood:

Clear? INSS has an innovative bonus system that works behind the scenes by creating clever combination bonuses that add up together to give you the actual income benefits- the one that the table shows. So if you follow this system and you're building a bonus of say, 5 territories, you will have a 5-territory bonus with a weird number that handles the INSS behind-the-scenes mechanics. In Gotham City, one example of this is Amusement full:

Notice that it's worth -15 income! That's an INSS behind-the-scenes number. Why is it not just +3? It's a Mr. Freeze territory, after all, and a full Mr. Freeze bonus is 3. Well, because you can't capture it without also holding all the bonuses for 1, 2, 3, and 4 territories within Amusement Mile! So you need it to all add up to 3. And that's why the actual value of those 5 territories is -12 (-15 in Amusement full, +3 in Amusement Mile), so that it all adds up to 3, once you factor in the Amusement sub-bonuses you also own if you own Amusement Mile in full.

But it'd really confuse players if you had a bonus link of -15 there... so we also have another Amusement Mile bonus:

Notice something? It's the same territories as Amusement full! On purpose!

See, INSS is a hack that works on top of Warzone's built-in bonus system to create something new and clever and brilliant. But the internals of this hack are ugly and shouldn't be exposed to players. So while Amusement full exists to actually implement the bonus mechanics, Amusement Mile exists to create a clickable, reasonable, highlightable bonus-link for players to use!

And that's why you might have someone deliberately create a duplicate bonus! And why the 5.08 restriction on these ruined a beloved feature. Thanks to this restriction, new INSS maps- including one PapaMarsh is working on- can't be submitted. And what's even worse- old ones can't be updated!

Please sign the Change.org petition to fix this: https://www.change.org/p/fizzer-allow-duplicate-bonuses-for-wz-maps-that-require-them-such-as-inss-maps

Thanks for your time!


Thanks to Kenghis Ghan for explaining this to me yesterday. And thanks to Fizzer for hopefully reading this to understand what the issue with your new restriction is.

Edited 3/16/2021 23:08:53
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/16/2021 23:01:56


Farah♦ 
Level 61
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I cannot +1 this enough. Thanks for the clear explanation!
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/16/2021 23:10:00


Widzisz • apex 
Level 61
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So in short, double bonuses are so that in this system one bonus actually show properly how many armies you get for the whole bonus, and the other, "hidden", is set to balance out other bonuses that are contained within.
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/16/2021 23:11:42


Farah♦ 
Level 61
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Yes, and that's exactly the question Fizzer had. Why do you need to have the same territories in the same bonus twice? Because it's user-friendly.
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 04:53:49


PapaMarsh
Level 59
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Wow, thanks a ton for this knyte! This is a perfect explanation that is easily digestible and should make clear why the 5.08 update was such a blow to some of the best maps on WZ.

One thing I'd like to mention is that these aren't just obscure, unknown maps. We're talking about maps that are very high in the Quick Match list and also played for Clan League. If you look at the Quick Match template list, there are five INSS maps in the top 25 highest-voted templates.

These are the Quick Match templates that are no longer possible as a result of the 5.08 change:
- Elitist Africa: #6 in the QM template vote list
- Biomes of America: #7 in the QM template vote list
- Gotham City: #11 in the QM template vote list
- Landria: #21 in the QM template vote list
- Master Mania: #25 in the QM template vote list
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 06:44:09


Coronel Gavilan
Level 59
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what a clear explanation. Personally, EA and Biomes are my fav maps of WZ in general. I dont want them out Fizzer. I hope you read what these guys are stating.
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 06:44:57


Johnny Silverhand 
Level 57
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Landria isn't actually impacted by the change.
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 07:00:23


Min34 
Level 62
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id personally be in favour of a tickbox, allowing you to give your map the option to have duplicate bonuses, but it disqualifies it from being used in idle (and anywhere else where duplicate bonuses are in the way). That way most maps can follow the new rules, but it won't restrict the mapmakers that want to be creative and find out new and amazing ways to make a map.
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 07:58:22


Timinator • apex 
Level 66
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+1, enough explanation is already given.
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 09:07:12


goralgn 
Level 60
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+1
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 09:57:59


JK_3 
Level 61
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Thanks for typing out the explanation knyte!

+50 for restoring INSS system

It's a shame Fizzer doesn't know how this works under the hood, even slightly worrying.
What other important things does he not know about?
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 10:58:06


krunx 
Level 63
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+1
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 10:58:58


alexclusive 
Level 64
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+1
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 11:51:34


Ursus 
Level 64
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+1
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 13:05:18

Mylo 
Level 61
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+1
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 13:24:12


Lionheart 
Level 61
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+1
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 13:26:54


Beep Beep I'm A Jeep 
Level 64
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+1
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 13:28:21


KaelF 
Level 59
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+1
- downvoted post by καλλιστηι
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 13:45:42


(ง︡'-'︠)ง let's fight!! 
Level 62
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+2
equalizing the small negative bonuses for a greater more positive bonus as its done in INSS

EDIT:
What the intention of INSS is, is actually best described on Issanders first INSS template called "Issander's New Strategic System Africa" (=>Elitist Africa)
https://www.warzone.com/Map/15987-Issanders-New-Strategic-System-Africa



Edited 3/17/2021 13:56:21
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 13:53:19


Φιλώτας
Level 62
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I guess this does not apply to RoR major bonuses and Super bonuses, correct?
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 13:54:28


Ursus 
Level 64
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correct, because a superbonus does contain all territories in there. The change that was made only applies to the exact same territories having multiple bonuses.
- downvoted post by Rento
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 15:19:18

TweeKeerJelle
Level 61
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+1 knyte

Edited 3/17/2021 15:20:41
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 15:25:44

Fizzer 
Level 62

Warzone Creator
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Duplicate bonuses are now allowed again. It will still display the dupe when you click "Validate", however it won't block you from making the map testing or public.
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 15:26:27


krinid 
Level 60
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Great explanation. Given yesterday's stream, I would assume that once Fizzer reads this, he'll accommodate in some manner. To be clear, it's not that we absolutely need to be able to declare 2 bonuses with the exact same territories in them, but rather we need a method to display a user-friendly bonus value to players. And there are a number of ways Fizzer could accommodate that.

2 bonuses with same territories is the easiest way to preserve the current INSS map method, but even in the description it was stated (and I agree) that it's a "hack", ie: not a great way to do it, but it's the best way (only way) using the game mechanics as they are. But it's clear that those same mechanics are breaking something else Fizzer is trying to do (in Idle) so he "fixed" it which broke INSS ... so given the overwhelming response to it being removed, I'd be surprised if he didn't fix INSS in some way.

@JK
It is a bit surprising that he isn't aware of the INSS mechanics, but not really a concern tbh. What's more concerning is that a change was made in an update that outright broke a feature of maps which while not fully understood by him was obviously intentional by map creators, and instead of proactively inquiring about it, just broke it instead. But he openly asked yesterday in the stream, "Why is this necessary?" so sounds like it's just a matter explaining it ... which knyte just expertly did, so think the ball's in Fizz's court now. He also stated (albeit on a different topic), "And I could be wrong", and "not sure if there's much demand for that" which does show that he's open to having his mind changed & is interested in what the player base wants, and I think we're showing here that this is something we want. So I'm hopeful that we'll get INSS back in some manner or another in a near future update.

- - - - - -

Update: LOL ... looks like we got them back while I was writing my last post. NICE! And thanks Fizzer. The player base smiles once more.

Edited 3/17/2021 15:27:29
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 15:27:28


Farah♦ 
Level 61
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Really it's just aesthetics that can be worked around by mapmakers. It's extra work for them and I understand it's frustrating.

It's not something that can be worked around. You can kinda get the same result, but it reduces the quality of the map. Being able to click a bonus to see which territories are in it, is an improvement to a map. INSS maps cannot do this anymore with this change.

Now you guys need to understand that having hidden bonuses that are identical to already existing bonuses has huge potential to introduce bugs in future features. It happened with Idle, that's why Fizzer changed it. But if Fizzer keeps reusing the maps for different gamemodes (like Clan Wars), it will be a problem eventually.

It happened once. INSS has been around for a long time. Also, the map for Clan Wars sets all bonuses to 0, so no worries there.

Edit: thanks Fizzer :)

Edited 3/17/2021 16:08:44
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 15:29:58


Hodop 
Level 60
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-999999999999

This change doesnt break anything. Really it's just aesthetics that can be worked around by mapmakers. It's extra work for them and I understand it's frustrating.

Now you guys need to understand that having hidden bonuses that are identical to already existing bonuses has huge potential to introduce bugs in future features. It happened with Idle, that's why Fizzer changed it. But if Fizzer keeps reusing the maps for different gamemodes (like Clan Wars), it will be a problem eventually.

Solution: we just need to accept that INSS maps need to work like Elitist Africa now, without bonus links. Must use features like text on top of bonuses (like in Africa) to help distinguish them, and use a color palette that doesnt disadvantage colorblind people

+999999999999
It does break it, it's not that you can't make a bonus have the same territories at all, so any hidden bonus pops up a warning.
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 15:29:59


Hodop 
Level 60
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-999999999999

This change doesnt break anything. Really it's just aesthetics that can be worked around by mapmakers. It's extra work for them and I understand it's frustrating.

Now you guys need to understand that having hidden bonuses that are identical to already existing bonuses has huge potential to introduce bugs in future features. It happened with Idle, that's why Fizzer changed it. But if Fizzer keeps reusing the maps for different gamemodes (like Clan Wars), it will be a problem eventually.

Solution: we just need to accept that INSS maps need to work like Elitist Africa now, without bonus links. Must use features like text on top of bonuses (like in Africa) to help distinguish them, and use a color palette that doesnt disadvantage colorblind people

+999999999999
It does break it, it's not that you can't make a bonus have the same territories at all, so any hidden bonus pops up a warning.
INSS & Duplicate Bonuses Explained: 3/17/2021 15:30:32


Hodop 
Level 60
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Oh nice dupes are allowed again! Thank a jillion Fizzer!
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