Except for the Dragon in my Lair in the basement, there's no Flames going anywhere :-D

But be warned! Pools and drinks are in the balance... :-p

I've investigated the cause of the Belgian-Dutch conflict ...

... and I found the answer! https://www.culturematters.com/why-the-belgians-hate-the-dutch-so-much/

What the Flemish dislike about the Dutch is that they are so loud, they talk too much (if not all the time), their humor is vulgar, and they are way too direct to the likings of the Dutch-speaking Belgians.

Now you might think that that is quite a lot of dislike, and that is true. The best piece of advice I got one day from a Belgian lady in answer to my question how to do better business with the Belgians as a Dutchman was: … (she took a long pause) … “Simply be quiet. Shut up and listen for once”. After that comment I was quiet 😉

So, there you have it! The Dutch just need to not reply to this thread and everyone will be a happy Larry!

Edited 1/10/2021 11:59:36

It's just too bad that the Dutch are stubborn and would never actually stop speaking

dammit.

I don't think it's funny. I think it's sad for Netherlands.
But better them than us.

I had a history teacher who refused to refer to Belgium as anything but 'The Southern Netherlands'.

Smh, we all know it’s the other way. “Netherlands” is Northern Belgium.

"Except for the Dragon in my Lair in the basement, there's no Flames going anywhere :-D"

So that's what happened to Dragon.

The Belgians and Dutch joke about each other; it's what neighbouring countries tend to do.

No they don't, Aussie talk about invading New Zealand is very serious. Soon enough the ANZ team will be just the AUS team.

You're both part of the same bonus on the EU map, so I think the real crime is leaving Luxembourg out of this conversation.

hard draw for UK B :S

already 0-2 as i wrote :S

Edited 1/11/2021 05:07:56

Maybe the Dutch find such jokes fun, but don't forget that Belgium got its independence by chasing the Dutch out who ruled and suppressed us. It's easy for you to think that way, but you may want to consider the other party's point of view. Let's keep the jokes about how Belgians are supposedly stupid (they are mostly not) and Dutch are supposedly stingy (they are mostly not), but stay away from actual territorial claims.

It keeps surprising me how many Dutch people think we may actually want that. We don't and we never will. You're like an annoying ex who can't stop sending messages. We're happier without you, let it go already, find someone else to harass!
And don't let me started about the completely misguided jokes about "only wanting the Flemish part", because that is internal politics that's complicated enough on its own, we really don't need any Dutch input on that.

So with respect to calling Belgium "Southern Netherlands", it's just a little bit more appropriate than calling current day Indonesia "Eastern Netherlands" or current day Suriname "Western Netherlands", but not much, so that should give you (hopefully!) some perspective. And if it didn't, pro-tip: don't. ever. do. either.

rakleader said something that implies a much larger, but more positive issue: France also ruled us for some time in history and we also sometimes joke about each other, but you'll hardly ever see a French person call Belgium "northern France" unless they want to be edgy, nor will they ever imply we should form one team with them. Nevertheless, a considerable part of our population does speak French. Why can't the Dutch let go, while the French can?

With respect to Luxembourg: same concept actually. We respect their independence, so we won't involve them or make jokes about it. Arguably, Luxembourg and large parts of southern Belgium have a lot in common, but they wanted to retain their independence after the world wars (despite a despicable attempt from Belgium to usurp them during the negotations in 1945), so why would they be included? Belgians are smart enough to not make jokes like that. We work together in the EU and Benelux with them, just like we work together with the Netherlands, nothing more, nothing less.

I like Quicksilver's post, but it only touches the more general, easy to understand reason why we don't always get along. Contrary to what you may believe, I do have quite a lot of Dutch friends and I do appreciate the Dutch, I never want to imply they are bad people. They just seem unable to owe up to the fact that there are some major problems that they do cause in Belgium and to Belgians, always thinking we love them, while we don't.
In Antwerp, four major problems are (1) the ongoing drug war, including multiple grenades being thrown in streets within a kilometre from my home, less than 100 metres from a friend's home, largely caused by Dutch criminals who took their business to the harbour of Antwerp after increased security in Rotterdam, (2) the fast rise of property prices, heavily skewed supply and demand, and the artificial gentrification of whole neighbourhoods is caused by Dutch immigrants and Dutch estate agents buying up property, greatly disturbing the regular housing market, (3) Dutch companies preying on successful small and middle-sized Belgian companies, often aggressively taking them over and then changing their ways to a Dutch model that often doesn't work well for the domestic market, moving certain parts to the Netherlands and in vacancies specifically ask for people with Dutch degrees, as a result hurting our economy at the benefit of their own, increasing the previous problem, and introducing a form of discrimination forbidden by law (4) Dutch tourists considering Antwerp as a freehaven where they can behave like absolute *****, be it groups of male tourists harassing women, groups of mixed or female tourists disturbing everyone in busy shopping streets or simply any "visitor" finding it unnecessary to follow COVID guidelines because apparently you suddenly become invulnerable once you pass the border? With respect to the latter, I felt a weird sense of (very inappropriate) revenge when Belgians did the same in Eindhoven and worsened the Dutch numbers as a result. How did that feel?

So I think my main issue with the Dutch is that they don't show respect to other people's feelings and sensitivities, always just bouldering in, wrongly assuming they have certain rights that cannot be touched and don't have to adapt to the environment, and as a result treating people in a bossy, often inappropriate, at times almost neocolonialistic way.
And yet, once they get to know you better, they actually do treat you like a person and can be a really good friend, but it's really sad that they first have to get to know you better before they can show that courtesy.

That's all for now, I've ranted enough about this. No hard feelings against anyone personal: people are a product of the society they grew up with, and society is a product of the people in it.

Edited 1/11/2021 10:28:50

sounded like a joke that you took way out of hand. maybe calm down?

Is that the same you would say to a women who just had to handle a lewd joke from a man and complains about it?
Is that the same you would say to a black person who just had to deal with a racist joke from a white person and complains about it?

I'm not saying it's necessarily at the same level, but we are talking about multiple people from one country repeately normalizing and jokingly laying a claim on another country. I don't think I need to "calm down", nor would the woman or black person need to "calm down".
In fact, if I wasn't calm, I would react in a much more aggressive way to your message, which I do find a most inappropriate response to my post.

Edited 1/11/2021 07:36:52

Hey Math Wolf,

I think it's fine if you don't like the comments and the jokes. ( I think the joke is kinda over used now anyways ). I can imagine that you get annoyed by it at a certain point. However, you started in this thread with trashtalking us so you shouldn't be surprised to get a return with such a comment. It's just a joke that is not funny anymore because people have said it too much. No big deal

@MW

I hope you know that it was never meant as offense, but the first thing you stated was that there'd not be a benelux team because of those "filthy dutch", you continued on joking against us saying you had a prettier princess and so on; we took those as jokes at least, not in any way as offense.

I hope you get that people tend to respond to a joke with a joke, and while you may not appreciate it, all the Flemish people I've known in my life (and there's quite a few of those) had a tendency to make this joke themselves, simply because they had more problems with the Walloons than with the Dutch. I would never consider such a joke without actually having heard it from a Flemish person; it's not about not having any disregard for feelings or empathy. I do apologize for it hurting you though, but I hope you get that it has nothing to do with "laying claim to a country", it's simply a joke that came into being from how the Flemish around me have acted in the past. I wouldn't call Suriname "Western Netherlands" unless a bunch of Surinames living or coming here were to call it so; and even then there is a massive difference, because Benelux is still bound in a manner.

I get that Antwerp is a bit of a different story btw, the problems caused there are heavier than anywhere else in Flanders, but you're acting as though each and every person in the Netherlands is responsible for this and generalizing our entire country. You can say that Dutch may need to get to know you before they treat you like a real person, but consider for yourself that you're not really treating any of us like a person right now either, you're treating every single person in the Netherlands as gum under your shoe;

Is not to say that I don't understand where that feeling is coming from, but you're turning it into black and white "us vs them" mentality that neither I, nor any of the people on the Dutch team would have started with.

Wordt dit het grote Nederland versus België (Vlaanderen) topic?

Yes, let's completely derail this thread for an innocent joke about another country. That will definitely get us the most out of this competition. While we're at it, let's report everyone for any jokes too.

Let's report the French first!

Snitches get stitches.

Watch your back, alex.

It's Nations' Cup, I consider nationalist jokes and drama to be on-topic.