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Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 08:16:46


Niko 
Level 58
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Hi all,

I open this thread about imo the non fair come back of Master clan in the CL.

Yesterday I learned that the Masters wanted to return to competition, good news at first ... Except that according to a stupid rule they can return directly to division A.

We will not question here the old Master events during a CL with the discovery of cheating on their part ... But I still want to report it.

It therefore seems that the Masters will simply take the place of another clan to avoid climbing division after division but return directly to the top. It would however be much more glorious on your part to start from the bottom and climb to show your supremacy. It is clearly not normal to be able to make this kind of deal, if the players of your clan wish to return directly to division A they have only to leave the Masters and go to a clan of division A.

It is a clan league, the most prestigious competition of Warzone to represent the clans. The Apprentices have made their way and it is in my opinion too simple and especially not fair for other clans to act as you do .... Although a so-called rule authorizes you, this rule has always been frowned upon and should have been removed long ago.

So instead of imposing yourself badly as you do, removing chances of victory in Division A for other clans (because yes you are strong there is no problem above and you will therefore have an impact on the season when arriving directly at the top) why not do like everyone else and climb the ladder one by one to reconnect with division A and impose your supremacy? Would still be more rewarding don't you think?

My request will surely be useless because you do not care what others think, but at least let room for a vote of each clan to see if the majority of clans agree to see you again live at the top. After two years of inactivity on the competition it would be a minimum for the respect of the game and others!
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 09:30:51


Norman 
Level 58
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Imo the underlying problem here is that those training clans give an unfair advantage to their parent clan.
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 09:31:58


master of desaster 
Level 65
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If you are nice to us, i'm willing to give out free omelettes avec fromage. So reconsider your opinion please
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 10:03:22

NoName 2.1
Level 60
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Good point, Niko. I hope that we can vote it to change this bad rule.
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 10:10:11


Marcus Aurelius
Level 59
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"Although a so-called rule authorizes you, this rule has always been frowned upon and should have been removed long ago."

Dura lex, sed lex.
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 10:25:06


Min34 
Level 61
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Although a so-called rule authorizes you, this rule has always been frowned upon and should have been removed long ago.

Not quite true. Pretty much everybody agrees that the old way where 101st was left in A and Lynx had to start at the bottom was a big mistake. Everybody agrees letting ONE take XS spot was the right move.
And even though the 101st Outlaws split was very controversial (mainly due to it being one of the first cases and the way the clans split up was just not great altogether) I think its safe to say that based on performance since then it was the right choice.
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 10:32:24


KaitoS
Level 60
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That seems like language certificates. You get the A level just for saying your name and you really need to be strong and fight for C level :).

And that is why I dont respect an entire clan that just add up good players because of its name. Its a lot more valuable for me a clan that raises from the lowest place and climbs up showing their skills. Not just in this game, just in real life.

Now if you feel this game is yours, get A level, who cares, it means nothing if you didint achieve it :)

Edited 4/8/2020 10:35:03
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 10:38:15

Phaeril 
Level 61
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I agree with you Norman. This is easy to see cases where this can lead to an unfair advantage. This is a tricky ethic problem that can be seen by different point of view.

It is impossible to define who owns the slot at player level as it could leads to numerous ethic problems to. One very simple solution that appears to me is that The Apprentices (tag) have a slot. To see it at Clan problem is very simple to legitimate. So The Apprentices have a slot, Master players go to Apprentices clan, with the Apprentices tag. Of course we cannot avoid clan changings by players (and in many ways it can be a good thing). Apprentices accepts Master, not the opposite way. This should be a way to work around the problem, but still legit for me, and without asking for anything to other clans.

To go further, if a Clan want to change its name without loosing it slot, I would agree too... but not like that. This situation remains to give the slot to another existing Clan (at least partially), that is unfair for the others. This goes back to the problem raised by norman. In some way, you can multiply your chances to have a slot in A, and you can also get a joker.

I don't blame Master to ask for it (did they ask?), especially if there is a rule allowing this, but these are the kinds of situations that lend themselves to legislating. No rule is frozen in time as we can see different way to play with it. If all are agree with that by voting, I agree with that. Otherwise, it means showing little consideration for the other participants, by finding tricky way to have more chances. This can also be considerated as an aristocratic law.

The most important thing is to have the opinion of all the participating clans. With no vote, my personal opinion (for what it's worth) is that The Apprentices clan is the master of decision here. If the players absolutely wants to have the Master tag to play with their new mates, ok so. You have the level, right? So show it, go through your path again, as everyone. No gift by transmutation.

Thanks for your amazing sense of humor MoD. ;)
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:13:48


TBest 
Level 60
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Apprentices accepts Master, not the opposite way. This should be a way to work around the problem, but still legit for me, and without asking for anything to other clans.

Why does the direction of the move matter, if the end result is the same players playing in one clan in the same spot?

Anyway, this discussion has been had before, and that was when the current rule* was made after quite a lot of discussion among all clans. It's quite well-written and works as designed. As Min said, the current rule had broad support and I suspect it still does.

I am much more interested in discussing multiple teams from one clan/ training clans. Last time there was no consensus there (afai remember). Which means that in terms of Clean League, all clans are independent.

*Since no-one posted the rules yet, here they are.
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:16:54


Marcus Aurelius
Level 59
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I genuinely don't understand why people are complaining. We are not talking about any clan, we are talking about MASTERS. It's not as if the integrity of the competition is compromised by letting some underqualified clan slide into Division A.

Don't be jealous.

Edit: After hearing people's arguments, I retract this statement. Fair point, I was being biased.

Edited 4/8/2020 11:39:44
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:19:56


{TLA} LND
Level 56
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I'd be interested to hear the details of the rule that allows them to do it before I make a full opinion; atm I'm inclined to simply state that if linked clans can just swap with each other (whether equal in skill or not), then they have an unfair advantage. Separate clans, however linked, should be considered separate clans for the purpose of CL. I know it's a bit more complicated than this, so I'd be happy to hear anyone's explanation of the relevant rules.
We are not talking about any clan, we are talking about MASTERS. It's not as if the integrity of the competition is compromised by letting some underqualified clan slide into Division A.
This seems really bad logic to me; just because a clan is good/well-known they get to jump to wherever they want? Clans should be treated equally, and a clan that's left CL should not be allowed to jump back in where they left off, in my opinion.
But we're talking majority rules here, and not gonna lie, Div A and B hold the power, and it sounds like a lot of those clans have previously benefited from this (or similar) rules. So they're not likely to vote against this rule.
For what it's worth, I think a rule that allows a clan to leave and then jump three divisions when they want to come back is not a very fair rule. Especially if they are doing it by means of a linked clan, which gives an unfair advantage to the clans that are linked, which I don't think should be allowed. In my opinion, all clans are separate and equal, and the only difference is skill level. Which they can prove by beating the clans they are better than, not by jumping over them.

(I think my opinion got stronger as I I went on. 😉)

Edited 4/8/2020 11:31:27
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:23:29


Cowboy 
Level 60
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Lol, so if Masters had joined Apprentice instead, there would be no issue, despite the fact that the only difference is the clan we'd be fighting under.

I don't see why all of Apprentice's hard work should be scrapped because we decided to merge with Masters.

Not to mention, CL history is full of precedence about clans not being about the tag, but the collection of players:
- Outlaws taking 101sts spot
- ONE! taking XS's spot
- Hydra taking Illuminati's spot.

None of these were done by clan vote, as they shouldn't be.
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:27:37


Cowboy 
Level 60
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"I genuinely don't understand why people are complaining. We are not talking about any clan, we are talking about MASTERS. It's not as if the integrity of the competition is compromised by letting some underqualified clan slide into Division A.

Don't be jealous."

Wrong way to look at it imo. If Masters wasn't willing to merge with anyone, they deserve to start in D. They're just using an avenue that's available to all clans.
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:30:42


rakleader 
Level 64
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Such a big conflict of interest.

What is the audit panel doing about this?
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:32:04


Cowboy 
Level 60
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@TBest

This was from the past time multiple teams per clan was discussed. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q7qwbAP0OvX4pC64DjQ5ZoERL4atQJdM1oaIlMZiMOc/pubhtml
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:33:44

NoName 2.1
Level 60
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I saw your point, Cowboy. If you see the Clan League History Master can plays with Apprentice spot, yes. But we can change the rule, if this generation of players/clans needs to change it.
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:34:42


{TLA} LND
Level 56
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Such a big conflict of interest.
that is exactly the issue here, since Div A and B have all the power. as Cowboy mentioned, many of these clans have benefited from similar rulings in the past.
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:36:16


{TLA} LND
Level 56
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NoName's got a decent solution, I think. Allow it this time because of precedent, but I think the rules should be changed, because it gives some clans an unfair advantage.
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:36:19


Min34 
Level 61
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I genuinely don't understand why people are complaining. We are not talking about any clan, we are talking about MASTERS. It's not as if the integrity of the competition is compromised by letting some underqualified clan slide into Division A.

I agree that this isnt a good argument and shouldnt be used. A clans skill is imo not an excuse to put it in any division. But thats also not why Mappsters expect to start in B.
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:37:22

Bam
Level 57
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it's time to rectify this rule and put an end to all these injustices!
For each case mentioned there was a huge drama !! with lots of people disagree! This proves that this rule is not good!
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:46:47


master of desaster 
Level 65
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Apprentices are recruiting btw. If some non french, non italian (italians are up to further discussion, if they want to join badly) are interested in joining, text me, min34, cowboy, nero or B. Just write a little text about who you are and why you'd like to join apprentices :)
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:47:26


Cowboy 
Level 60
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@Bim

Not true. Only 2 decisions were controversial.

Outlaws and 101st
Lynx and 101st

First because it was a spot being taken from a clan that still wanted to play, IE the precedence of clans not being the tag, but the set of players.

Second, because Lynx wasn't allowed to have the spot, which was considered bad for the health of the league, and contributed to a diminished level of competition.

Edited 4/8/2020 11:47:51
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:53:32

Zev 
Level 62
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ok, now, 3rd !!
let's do this vote with all the clans participating in the CL pls! At least we will know what people think
(my thoughts are for myself, Lynx has nothing to do with it)

Edited 4/8/2020 11:56:08
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 11:59:22

Rento 
Level 60
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Why the div D clans want Masters to start from D so badly? Masters will just block the promotion spot in D from other clans, how is that fair to other div D clans?
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 12:05:57

Zev 
Level 62
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Ask Vikinger this season! 3 div B clan (at least) in div D !! they had 0% luck to be promoted !
Is one of this 3 clans started in div B ? No ! Cause it s the normal way for every clan !
Why Master s player don t want to play with Apps tag ?

Edited 4/8/2020 12:08:48
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 12:07:17


Cowboy 
Level 60
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Voting is redundant imo. Masters is well within the right to use the rule as any other clan could. They shouldn't be punished because clans like FC didn't do it.
So I do not agree with a vote on Masters claiming the spot.

Now whether the rule should be redacted or not, I don't think a vote is necessary there either. If the community as a whole thinks the rule should be scrapped, I'd consider it, but remember, clans both from mergers (Hydra) and clans being formed from splitting off of others (ONE, Outlaws), will no longer be allowed to happen, which is not good for the state of clans, let alone CL
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 12:09:54


Cowboy 
Level 60
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@Zev imo Polish Eagles is not a division B clan. They have holes that severely hurt their chances of promotion this season, and this was even more true of Vikinger, who has yet to beat German Warlords
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 12:10:34

NoName 2.1
Level 60
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Yes, Cowboy. In my opinion we can end this rule with Master in Div.A/B this time but then try to vote together to change this rule. Because is not clean in my opinion. I agree with Norman, for example.

MoD seems like fake Hitler.. very sad to read how u write every time
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 12:14:05

Rento 
Level 60
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Ask Vikinger this season! 3 div B clan (at least) in div D !! they had 0% luck to be promoted !


I agree with this, but the real problem is that we have 4 division levels. I was against it from the start. People wouldn't mind so much if the discussion was about whether Masters play in B or C next season. But new strong clans starting from 4th division level was a bad idea from the start.
Discussion about the come back of Master in the CL: 4/8/2020 12:14:24


Cowboy 
Level 60
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Don't bully my friend Mod. He is very handsome and doesn't deserve to be bullied.
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