1) Stalling is wrong.

2) It would be quite easy to fix without flaming with an auto-surrender rule. Say, once 2*income+armies is <X% of opponents', an auto-surrender clock of Y times the boot-time runs whenever player who is behind hasn't moved and their opponent has. Don't know whether Fizzer would go for it though.

3) The forum is full of crap about stalling, which is far worse than stalling itself. Discord is even worse, or at least it was a year ago when I gave up on it for its toxicity.

4) The people who get self-righteous about alleged stalling ignore the same behaviour in their own clan, or, in some cases, do it themselves.

5) My approach has been to rise above all this and accept that some of my opponents will probably stall as the lesser of two evils. Hence I never call people out for it, although maybe one day I'll get so sick of the hypocrisy that I start....

6) My guess is that others in my clan take the same attitude, though I don't know - we've got better things to talk about! That down-to-earth attitude and enjoyment of the game, rather than manufactured drama, is something that I appreciate. It's sad that this makes us particularly targeted for this crap, but so be it. Just keep rising above it.

7) Not being on discord or in clan leadership, I don't know about any recent incidents involving either alex or Jo Jo, but I have long since stopped looking at alleged incidents anyway. The lies and the flaming just made me angry. I do know they are both more sporting players than the people doing the flaming.

8) When you flame people, don't be surprised when they unite against you.

9) This will be me only comment in this thread and I won't read replies, but I'm sure that won't stop the flaming!

It'd be great to have an effective way to determine stalling, but a formula like this can only be used on overly excessive cases. Anyways, I'd welcome this...

The seasonal ladder is easily manipulated, already one or two more stalled turns lead to the same amount of matchups, that are too good for the stalling person at that moment and strip away the opportunity for good matchups for people who deserve it. Very few better matchups have a very big impact on the ratings and even future matchups, especially in the beginning of the seasonal

Good to see you're against stalling kicorse. It isn't wrong at all to talk about it and point fingers, after all that's the only method that's at least partially effective at all against stalling. Also, everyone can consider for himself wheter an accusation is gibberish or true, so anyone who points fingers indeed does it on the risk of losing credibility.

Edited 11/12/2019 23:06:28

I still can't hold back... I just have to point out how ridiculous this situation is. You always mention how egregious it is to call others stallers. You say you didn't look in any cases but since you know alex so well you know he wouldn't stall. You should look at his latest 1vs1 run for a change of mind. All you effectively did with your post is trying to silence everyone who is against stalling. Sure, some overdid it with accusations, but all you do in exchange, is claiming the real problem lies with the guys who want to make stalling cases public.

Also, looking away or just ignoring it when you see it by accident, doesn't solve a single thing.

Edited 11/12/2019 23:34:36

All you effectively did with your post is trying to silence everyone who is against stalling.

This is quite relevant. Also, lots of carelessness in here, which is naturally upsetting to the OP.

9) This will be me only comment in this thread and I won't read replies, but I'm sure that won't stop the flaming!

I actually got bothered by that, why would you join a discussion if you're only willing to speak up and close your ears to the others? I mean don't even get me wrong, I for one was pleased and agreed with most of your other points, except maybe 3) 6) 7)

Edited 11/13/2019 00:17:08

What about a ladder modification to auto-surrender on your behalf as a conservative mercy rule? You'll maybe prevent some legendary comebacks, but say something like:

- Armies less than 1/2 of opponent's AND
- Income less than 1/2 of opponent's

for 3 consecutive turns

results in the game automatically ending for you, whether or not you're aware of the situation. People playing on the ladder would know about this mechanism in advance; very, very few games would be affected (and those that will be, will be acceptable losses for the purpose of speeding up the ladder); and these stalling complaints would be mitigated.

Would have to convince Fizzer, obviously.

Edited 11/13/2019 06:34:56

The seasonal ladder is easily manipulated, already one or two more stalled turns lead to the same amount of matchups, that are too good for the stalling person at that moment and strip away the opportunity for good matchups for people who deserve it. Very few better matchups have a very big impact on the ratings and even future matchups, especially in the beginning of the seasonal

Maybe the real problem is with the system?...
What if nobody stalling but different game speed?
You can still suck much in the beginning if you got a (or more) slow motion player(s), no?

Btw, I can't understand that how can be so high respected (competitive point of view) the seasonal ladder.
Ok, very hard to win it, but then much harder to win the EuroJackpot...

And I don't say the stalling is ok (not ok at all), but these forum topics and flames are much worse imo :/

And the stalling is not a clear thing! Because when I was active, I remember that I played my easy win games much much faster than the games where I was in trouble. And not because I was thinking more in the harder games (and not for stalling purpose at all!), but because I am a lazy bitch and try to avoid the harder brain work as long as I can.
Still suck for you if I was your starting opponent while because the system you need fast ended early games, but hey, this is a (serious) problem with the system not me :P

Although I fully can understand your point of view too, can be very irritating got a slower player or a staller in the beginning in the seasonal ladder, but hey again, this is with the seasonal ladder, you can play in MDL or other great events ;)

I agree, the seasonal rating system is flawed. No idea why it's attracting so many good players... Maybe because it's exclusive and the trophy is hard to get? I agree it doesn't really make sense from an objective view, all i know is, i enjoy these seasonal runs a lot cause every single game matters more than on any other ladder...

You can always get lucky or unlucky with your matchups, but limiting that bad luck to the randomness of the system is so much better than if it's gamed by players additionally.

Again, i'd like to highlight that there are 3 days boot time for a reason. Everyone can use them to it's fullest, except for abusing the flawed matchmaking system please.

You can always get lucky or unlucky with your matchups, but limiting that bad luck to the randomness of the system is so much better than if it's gamed by players additionally.

But what is the difference? Pairing with a staller is still random, no?
I mean a staller will stall against everybody, not only vs. you.

For seasonal ladder you need skills to avoid slow players, players who will leave the ladder after a few games, bad ingame lucks with WR/first moves (because as you wrote, every single game is very important), etc.

Why only the stalling is the problem?

Ok, moral, sportsmanship...

All the official ladders are infected by stalling default, and this is not very important for Fizzer so won't be changed, thus better if you create a CLOT ladder where stalling is not a problem.
Wait, MDL already exists :P


But ok, you can try to find a solution, good luck.
An idea: community can create a Hall of Fame, where ladder No.1 players who got the thropy with stalling can be marked (or separated in a shame list ;) )

A thread like this and platinum hasn’t arrived yet...

I’m very surprised

A thread like this and platinum hasn’t arrived yet...

I’m very surprised

Yeah, weird. I think he retired after winning the 3v3 ladder! ;)

Edited 11/13/2019 15:06:35

I'm actually a little worried. Something must have happened to him in real life to keep him away for so long.

Everyone relax, we’re after the wrong guy. Obviously JoJo is against stalling.

https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=17314477

Clans should be actively discouraging any negative behavior that hurts the gaming eco-system, not encouraging it or sweeping it under the carpet as the Lynx crowd. Because clans are groups of people that want to enjoy the game for a particular purpose and if "Stallers" or "Cheaters" are allowed to be this then this just hurts the game and makes everyone lose and most importantly the game. New players are reading our forum posts and will be forming their behaviors off of them, if we say yes to stallers.. then surprise stallers will pop up. It's about heightening the social cost of stalling to discourage players from doing it. Lynx + GG has failed ludicrously on this perspective. Each clan has a responsibility and should try to take it seriously. If we all don't. The whole thing falls apart.

---

"Too bad that Platinum didn't post anything yet. I loved how he cried for 2 years that someone spied Outlaws' Skype chat and then he started spying Lynx Discord himself."

The screenshots were unfortunately leaked from your discord and I got them in a lovely wrapped present from this "Spy". I didn't actively go out to seek this information. Though, I invited Krunx and Alex and whichever Lynx to my Outlaws discord and gave them permission to seek my opinions on Lynx. Because I don't like hiding opinions like teenage girls. I believe the statistic was for every once I mentioned Lynx. My name would be mentioned 10 times in your Lynx server. What does the statistic say? Each to their own. I must be very popular tho!

---

My dearest Rento,

Stalling is about intention, scenario, and reward. If you're 9-0 on a ladder run and you need 1 game won to take 10-0 to get the trophy but have 1 game that's lost. You will stall the lost game, win the won game and hence get your reward of an inflated rating to get the trophy. Context matters, that's where you are getting confused and giving the "99% of stalling accusations is bullshit".

When you stalled, it was more of a prolongation stall of a couple of turns and halting games (although with Hades permission hence why you were buttered up to go there), In the case of Alexclusive 2v2's ladder run, It was a scene like the first paragraph. I made the thread and he suddenly surrenders the lost game. To make me look like a "jump at the gun" fool but it prevented him from a cheap trophy.

I'm the player who has made the accusations in the past, I'm more than happy discussing them all since I've always felt you or the Lynx crowd have defaulted to the "Platinum has an agenda against Lynx" rather than debating me if it was actual stalling, which it was otherwise you would've proved me wrong already (if that really was the case).

You can't possibly call out people's hypocrisy when yourself have stalled in the past and you're now being the poster boy of defense, ultimately full of fueled rants where you've called mod an idiot and questioned symptoms of mental disorders. That's a true sign of a not very bright person.

Wishing you all the best,
Platinum

---

Hello Kicorse,

My most reasonable minded friend in Lynx, congrats on your QM #1 with Travelling Lemon.

It's a bit brave saying "We'll rise above this" then proceed to have no actions but hope your clan mates simply change their behavior. It feels to me you're creating an image that everyone is after Lynx because they're Lynx, this a lot more cowardly from an intellectual person.

Actions speak louder than words. "Stalling is wrong". Why is no action following? You did for the awful "toxicity" these threads.

It's also brave to admit you could've done better..

Hope this finds you well through your bravery

Platinum

---

The line of logic isn't there, I would rather if Lynx simply takes responsibility and simply say "We think stalling is okay" instead of pretending it's wrong and proceeding decide to do fuck all about it.

Don't pretend it's wrong if you will literally do nothing about it.

People aren't that dumb and the more you keep going, the more flaming and people will call you out for this bullshit. Nobody likes flakes that pretend.

I would like if Alex could take some time off from his t-shirt printing and make a statement simply elaborating on Lynx's actual position, do you guys give a fuck or not? and stop with the "Stalling is wrong but we're gonna do it and pretend it's terrible and we disapprove".

Being this delusional is taking the toxicity up another scale then I could possibly do, even if I tried.

Jefferspin is the worst staller ever. He has stalled his retirement for 3+ years. Can someone kick him out of Warzone already?

Moto is alive!

I haven't bothered reading the 2nd page, after the... 1st page. Hopefully I didn't miss much. Couple of thoughts:

1. Some people view stalling as highly unethical behavior. Other's don't - since its legal in the rules, and hence morally ok for them. There isn't a good way to come to an agreement with mutually opposed beliefs like this. The only way is to change the system so that there is no such loophole. There is a lot of behavior similar to stalling in nature, irl, so it won't go away no matter how justified or frustrated counterarguments will be.

All that's changed is that fewer people get mad about stalling, and more people are friends with stallers. Sorry @MOD :/


2. Seasonal ladder is easier to fix than the continuous ladders, because its a finite problem. Here's one example of alterations:

A. There is a hard time limit for joining. No late starts. (Also remove the carry-over of players from previous seasons.)
B. Everyone is paired randomly and matches are determined at the true season start. (Preventing booting is even more important because you have no control over your matchups.)
C. Give people more games/make the season longer. The goal being to reduce the variability between players of similar skills with different opponents.
D. This could result in one large calculation to determine overall elos, rather than constant recalculations. AFAIK this happens every 2 hours anyway, so we aren't adding anything...?
E. If we want a way to rank players, we could track win-counts instead of an actual elo.

This is more work, but I think its also more fair than my suggestion below for the regular ladders.


3. The fundamental problem of the ladders is that you can get ratings for games out of their chronological order. What if games only counted as complete if all prior games are ALSO finished? So I would need to finish my 1st game to lose/gain from my 2nd game, AND to get a third game. Obviously a bandaid solution, but it means people are forced to take the average of several games, not one, when they finish. It also means people will go longer without rating shifts.

I "think" that is a relatively isolated change that won't require Fizzer to rework a whole bunch of ladder stuff.


4. It cuts both ways, not just for stallers. We also have incentive to defeat higher ranked players faster than lower ones. For a crappy example; I recently paired against both Suschel (5th then) and Yellow (19th) in my 1v1 ladder run. Warlight created them consecutively. However, I beat Suschel much faster than Yellow, because Suschel and I both made turns within hours or even minutes of each-other. Yellow made his moves on average, once a day. I could have paired with Suschel a couple of days later than Yellow and still finished him faster, impacting my next opponent.

The point is, slow opponents are a disadvantage. Likewise, fast wins are an advantage. The goal of 3. is to balance both out. Beating the No.5 player was vastly more likely to pair me with the then-No.2 (or 1), than beating the No.19.

(edit: slight elaboration)

Edited 11/14/2019 06:24:39

What if games only counted as complete if all prior games are ALSO finished?

And one troll stalling your 19th game would prevent you from being ranked form month

"And one troll stalling your 19th game would prevent you from being ranked form month"

So perhaps we need a way to autodetect when someone has generically "lost" alongside - perhaps a counter for a generic army/income disadvantage. If we stop every time we hit a "snag", we won't get anywhere.

Edit: It would be nice if you gave me more than a one-liner too.

Edited 11/14/2019 20:49:51

can't believe we're still whining about this 5 years later