Question on roster/lineup: What about smaller clans such as 7th, who only have 9 total players (we might grow a little bigger by the time CL9 begins, but atm, that's how many we can possibly field if everyone is available to play the entire season)? Seems like having the lineups being that big might penalize us, if say, 1 or 2 of the people on our roster can't play CL 9...

No seeds for Division E? There are some decently strong clans in there, probably stronger than whoever gets last in C. Come to think of it, the fairest solution is probably some sort of full seeding, but that would take the fun out of the random draw, wouldn't it? :P No matter what, I think, there will always be stronger and weaker qualifying groups.

Overall, I definitely consider the new system an improvement, thanks!

Interesting. So if I understand right, clans in the qualifier pot will have to decide whether to put their best players only in Stage 2 (and risk not even making it to Stage 2) or put some of them in Stage 1 and some in Stage 2 (and risk doing really well in Stage 1 and then losing Stage 2).

Also, the organizers and clan leaders will have to be really careful to make sure the players know in advance when games will be created. Otherwise someone might go on vacation right before the game is made and not join within 3 days.

@Jaymer, when making a CL lineup I've never felt like I need to hold back where to put players. The best player is in each slot.

Also, what is Jaymer referring to failing to join in 3 days if on vacation?

@Jaymer, the CLoT will be able to tell if a player who hasn't joined in 3 days hasn't joined due to a vacation. So that won't be a problem.

Is the not-yet-implemented feature you're talking about just vacation detection? If so, you should be able to (reliably, automatically, inexpensively) do that outside the public API endpoints already without violating the Terms of Service.

Knyte, I am happy to say the WL's most recent update added Vacations to the API :)

Theses changes are very promising! I just hope that stage 1 will not drag for too long before stage 2 begins. I also hope that the new good clans (Apprentices, Outlaws if not in division B, etc.) that will participate will be evenly distributed amongst the groups of stage 1 to prevent the formation of a very overpowered group. Imagine something like Apprentices, Outlaws, 7th Heaven and Hydra all in the same group of stage 1...This situation could very well happen as the new clans will be randomly distributed.

Edited 9/3/2016 06:40:45

1) The max 3 games each player applies to stage 1 and stage 2 at the same time?
If the rule applies to both stages at the same time it can be against the top-clans of the qualifiers, because they need to save some top players for stage 2 (they are aiming for that) and mid-level clans can go all out...
Maybe a solution could be to add a slot to each player in stage 1 if their clan passes to stage 2 (i.e. 4 games in total, but only can play a maximum of 3 in either stage)

2) Rosters additions (10) are a bit to much in my opinion.

3) All players should be members of a clan before the deadline. I agree with that but I think it should be more restrictive later. If a players changes clans he or she must be substituted (if you don't have more substitutions available, all the games from that player are lost). This season a lot of clans have a lot of players from other clans, for example, in divB there are a lot of clan A players...and that's pretty unfair (in fact, the only ones who uses divB players are at the bottom of that division...).

I feel like line-ups need to be send in before the stage 1 drawings will be taking place in where the groups for stage 1 will be decided as well as the 6 templates they will be playing during stage 1.

stage 2 will be using the 7 templates that weren't part of stage 1 with the players they originally had in their line-up for those templates keeping the 3 tournaments a player in mind.

Clan League 9 Seeding:

---

The current system for Season 9 involves seeding the two clans relegating from Division B and the clans in Division C, relegating from Division C and promoting from Division D; 8 clans in total this season and going forward. All clans below in Divisions D and E would be unseeded and randomized into groups 1-4 during a livestream. In future seasons, only those clans that end up in Stage 2 would be seeded with all stage 1 clans be randomized into groups the subsequent season.

As much as that is entertaining for clans not in Divisions D and E or the staged part of Clan League, unseeded and seeded clans are subjected to massive amounts of uncertainty which isn't 'fun' for anyone actually playing in that part of Clan League.

What I propose is increasing the seeding process to all clans that are currently participating in Clan League. New clans would be unranked and randomized, but in relation to the number of participating clans, it would be but a fraction of those in the staged format.

Here is a mock seeding process going into season 9 from fake results of this season and how seeding would work doing into season 10:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nwo6gWwooVDsLDlr6lxT0OMxcPmvuTRcgcpEM0v4_ZY/edit#gid=693234780

Pros: Its more predictable and clans are aware of their groups in advance. Clans not in the top 8 have their performance factored into which group they end up in. Should leave to even groups.
Cons: For season 9, stage 1 groups are quite wonky as the P/R league groups really are messed up and translate poorly the first season of implementation (I'm looking at Group 4 season 9).

So, I talked to Beren and MotD about this on the livestream and they said they would want to ask all the clans which system they would prefer:

Randomized Groups or Ranked Seeding.

Thoughts?

Edited 9/4/2016 22:14:54

I think the current system is better. At least it's fair as paths to groups B and A (and to first place of group A) are down to performance only and everyone understands it. Only problem is long seasons and summer play. Why not reducing amount of games ? Way to do it is less Clans in divisions, with more divisions to compensate. 5 clans per group, 2 promote, 2 go down, 1 stay. Every season there's movement, something is happening to every clan which is exciting. Of course way from lowest Division G to division A is long but each season would last 2 months tops, which is also easier for players to bear. Over a year (without break), a successful clan could move up all 6 Divisions.

Another wish would be that a player can not play in more than 1 tourney, so that a clan can not benefit from 1 strong player. An exception could be granted to clans of small size.

A small suggestion: consider to set up 1v1's as team games so that the team chat may be used as private notes for that player.

A small suggestion: consider to set up 1v1's as team games so that the team chat may be used as private notes for that player.

Yep.. Taken care of already :)

Edited 9/5/2016 03:16:28

Another wish would be that a player can not play in more than 1 tourney, so that a clan can not benefit from 1 strong player. An exception could be granted to clans of small size.

I don't this will work well. TLW would probably have to drop out of CL if this were implemented, we simply don't have enough people willing to play strat. Note: I am not even talking about skill here. Also, we would have to play people with sub-1k ratings, which is unheard of.

hate to be a dissenting voice but it seems to me that this whole shake-up is rather counter productive.

Seems the main criticism of the current setup is the possibility of uneven divisions due to new clans entering at the bottom.

Having seen your own example of how the groups may be seeded though it looks extemely uncompetitive throughout.
The great enjoyment of playing in a division set-up is that as much as possible each clan will be competitive. It seems that this is not a priority now?

From the examples given, some teams would be expected to finish on 0 points!!
Where is the incentive for clans like RP to even enter if they are likely to be in the same division as clans like Outlaws & King Kong?

It's basically taking the competitiveness out of the league from what i see

Was it not feasible just to have the panel reach an agreement on the expected strngth of the new clans and slot them into the relevant division even if that meant having an extra team in that division for a season?

Edited 9/5/2016 09:06:07

Right now you basically have the tier 1 clans in A and then the tier 2 clans on top of B but from tier 3 onwards all of them are split between B-E right now in some way and they basically have to be split with 2-3 spots in B and the others in C and then it becomes a matter of opinions that clash for where a new clan needs to be placed.

If we take the current score then 101st and Blitz will be promoting to A but imo the current 101st line-up basically all left 101st and most went to Outlaws so if you look at it that way then you should have 101st staying in A and then Outlaws joining A as well since it's a new clan with mostly the old 101st line-up?

I really don't see that working after all. I think the current solution would be the best for example if a clan like [20] wants to join back in they don't have to start in E or F by then but go into the stage 1 pool and then win there and in stage 2 as well so they get into division B on their 2nd season and in the 3rd season they are back in the place they should belong.

I know for the lower ranked clans it might not be the best option but right now with the size becoming so huge it would take ages to promote to the higher Divisions.

Another example i want to pull out is the Strat MME promo/rele league run by pushover right now i think. He is using super-promotions just to make you go through the divisions faster since the lowest division is like J or so by now so if he didn't it would take like 10 seasons for the best players to get into the correct division and maybe they get into a Group of death on the way there which even prevents them from going faster through the divisions. 1 season in there takes over 3 months on average as well i think so you would be playing 2 and a half years before you have even a change on getting the title as best on that template in league format.

You all oversee something signifacant in my mind. The thing we all want to talk about is a Clan League. But we are talking about a Clan Ladder in a way. Isn't it?

Yes it takes ages to get in the top spots, but that is a League like.

Btw it is really frustrating to me that the seeds not at all are giving any advantage although we will be 1st or 2nd.

What about those superpromotions ^. Wouldnt they give you the possibilty to geht up faster? If you are too good at school you can skip classes, too.

With 6 years you cant do your master exam normally. Its hard, yeah. But thats life!

You know why each Season there are more clans joining? and we need more and more divisions? - Because it is great already

Edited 9/5/2016 12:10:59

For the sustainability for a competitive league we need a way to engage fresh blood immediately into the top competition without making them be in a top clan. In any major competitive game, sport, etc. there is a way to get into the top competition within the first 1-2 years of your career. This isn't true for CL anymore. CL takes a long time to play, roughly 6-7 months. That means there are 2 seasons a year. This means a fresh clan can take 3 years to get engaged into the competition. By then the meta will have completely changed, the top clans will have mostly changed their rosters, meaning it would make more sense for fresh blood to join the top clans. I don't want that, I want a clique of new players to be able to play competitively without having to join a top clan immediately. It's more engaging that way.

Maybe changing the promotions systems with a play-off or something. For example, with groups of 7 clans:
Div A 1-4 remain in A, DivA 5-6 go to A-play-off, divA 7 go to divB.
DivB1 go to A, divB2 and DivC1 go to divA play off with divA5 and DivA6. (the top 2 go to A and the other two to B).
DivB3-4 remain the same, divB5-6 go to B-play-off and DivB7 go to C.
DivC1 to A-play-off, divC2 to B-play-off, divC3-4 remains, divC5-6 C-play-off, divC7 go to D.
Etc

Play off summary:
A: A5, A6, B2, C1
B: B5, B6, C2, D1
C: C5, C6, D2, E1
etc

This way, if there is a very strong clan at lower levels they could go up 2 divisions at a time (there is not even a need to win the play off, there are 2 slots), or 1 at least. In the other hand, some clans could remain in their division if they were in a very competitive group, they only need to avoid last spot (and manage on the play-off).

In addition to a play-off system, the number of tournaments could decrease a bit (or groups of 6 better) to make the seasons a bit shorter (maybe the same if we add the play-off time).

Edited 9/5/2016 13:19:35