I have been waiting for varys to say this.......since he first posted

Simply because I have better things to do... like play CK2

This is why we can't have nice things

What is this cancer?

^

This cancer is called...

neo-offtopiciititis.

OP == Original Post

WCT:
I'm ignoring this thread.

It's pointless.

I'm not going to take the time to describe something neither of us care about to you.

Well, that was easy.

If you don't care about it, then why did you go to the lengths of saying The Conservative isn't "really a Christian"? (Side note: Notice the " quotation marks here. They mean something.)

If you don't care, why do you make such a big deal of it?

@Norman

As the Jews crucified their messiah the nation of Israel is currently cast aside by God. Since the destruction of the temple 70AD Judaism is dead anyways.

Isn't it the Romans who crucified Jesus though? Crucifiction was a custom among Romans, not Jews. And even if some Jews played a role in it (i know the NT claims so, but it is not so clear for historians), does it mean that all ancient Jews are cast aside by Jesus because of it? And does it mean (as you seem to suggest) that the modern jews are also still being punished for it?

Do you think that this rethoric,* the blaming of all the Jews for the death of Jesus * wich was professed for centuries in Europe, had a role in preparing the groundwork for the Holocaust? Do you think that it can be viewed as bible-inspired antisemitism, or is it harmless and happen to be a Holy Truth?

When you say that Judaism is dead, apart from it being factually wrong, isn't it different from the question of the Jews as an ethnicity (sons of Israel)?

Also, in light of what Jesus said about the Law of Moses being still valid to the letter, since you say that it isn't valid for Christians, then to whom exactly is it still applicable?
Whoever moses' Law is still applicable to, do you agree that it essentially prohibit them from following Christ, since Jesus' New Testament contradicts and overrides the Old Testament.(for example, many Christians think that the NT prohibit the killing of homosexuals, while the OT explicitly commands it)

Edited 2/3/2016 18:43:46

Isn't it the Romans who crucified Jesus though?
The Jews were the driving force behind his crucification.
---

does it mean that all ancient Jews are cast aside by Jesus because of it?
It depends on how you define "ancient". Let me quote from John 8:

"They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?” Jesus replied, "[...] I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.” “Abraham is our father,” they answered. “If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would do what Abraham did. As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. You are doing the works of your own father.”" [...] Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.

God justifies both Jews and gentiles for free under the requirement of faith. The holy people of the Old Testament faithfully awaited the coming of the Messiah however if Jews nowadays still believe that the Messiah hasn't come yet then this automatically means that Jesus had to be a fraud, worthy of death penalty (if you follow the law).
---

When you say that Judaism is dead, apart from it being factually wrong, isn't it different from the question of the Jews as an ethnicity (sons of Israel)?
I haven't actually counted however I'm quite sure that way over 50% of the law has the requirement of there being an intact temple. The centre of biblical Jewish faith is the temple. Without the temple there aren't any sacrifices and thus there is no way to approach God. I'm not an expert on nowadays Jewish everyday life faith however if someone would tell me something like "The temple is gone but whatever, we manage just fine without." then this would be obviously complete nonsense.
---

Do you think that this rethoric,* the blaming of all the Jews for the death of Jesus * wich was professed for centuries in Europe, had a role in preparing the groundwork for the Holocaust? Do you think that it can be viewed as bible-inspired antisemitism, or is it harmless and happen to be a Holy Truth?
I don't know. In his antisemitism Hitler could probably fall back on Luther. However then the Third Reich was an obviously atheist society inspired by Darwinism and not by any biblical values.
---

Also, in light of what Jesus said about the Law of Moses being still valid to the letter, since you say that it isn't valid for Christians, then to whom exactly is it still applicable?
Let me quote here from Romans 2:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in[ Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Gods written requirements are still applicable for every Jew trying to get justified by the law and also all of mankind has an understanding of God written inside their heart. The point of the law is that it requires works on human side and everyone falls short of those works and thus can't get saved but only condemned by the law. Nothing of Gods requirements can be taken away and whoever breaks the smalles bit is guilty of breaking the whole law. Facing Gods commands a homosexual is just as condemned as every straight guy.

Edited 2/3/2016 19:57:17

I'm just gong to put my response to OP into the thread. I'm not really sure if these points have already been brought up since I didn't read the entire thread, but here I go.

The issue here is not really whether gay marriages within christian churches is moral from a christian standpoint; We both seem to agree that it isn't. Case in point: Matthew 19:4-6

4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

Instead, the issue of debate is whether It should be legal at a federal level in the United States.

Looking at the way it was legalized, Judicial Review via Obergefell v. Hodges, It's pretty clear that this particular decision should not have happened. Besides it being a clear violation of states rights, It effectively attempted to silence debate on a very controversial issue.

How Controversial? Well, even the most conservative polls put the percentage of americans opposed to Obergefell v. Hodges at 35-60%. That is 112-200 MILLION People who's opinions have simply been disregarded as outdated and irrelevant. This is not democracy. This is fascist-style disregard for what your people want.

What's even worse is that this decision was not handed down by an elected body, such as State legislatures who had previously banned gay marriage in several states, or congress, an actual nationally elected body. Heck, it was not even given out by executive order via the President, another nationally elected official.

No, this decision was made by what amounts to an appointed aristocracy. This is simply inexcusable.

However then the Third Reich was an obviously atheist society inspired by Darwinism and not by any biblical values.

Was it now?


“The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement)
was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.”
[Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

“I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty
Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work.”
[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

“I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator.”
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

“This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the
practical existence of a religious belief.”
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]

“And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove
those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God.”
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

“Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another… while the
enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve.”
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.309]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StaPF5qqFDk

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/23/list-of-hitler-quotes-he-was-q/

How Controversial? Well, even the most conservative polls put the percentage of americans opposed to Obergefell v. Hodges at 35-60%.

source: http://www.pewforum.org/2015/07/29/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

lol honestly? You do realize mein kampf was propaganda right? Hitlers book was meant to rally the people behind him. At the time he was writing it, hitler was afraid of scaring off the Christians, they made up a big chunk of the germen people.


Hitler was a Darwinist through and through and darwins ideas partly justified hitlers preachings of races inferior to the Aryans. In all honesty, its really just bullshit to say the man was a complete Christian or an atheist, he was just basically an insane and used ideas from both to grow his beliefs. Pointing figures to Christians or atheists and saying he was one of us is a cheap move by both groups and im tired of it. In conclusion, you both need to grow up and stop using evil men in history to drag the other persons religion or belief system through the mud

About the Third reich, you can read about their persecution of christians in these articles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Reich_Church

If you're going to try to tell me that Nazi's were pro-christian, keep in mind that the publication of the bible was banned in germany. The Nazis saw christianity as a jewish conspiracy to weaken the master race. Claiming that they were christians, or even atheists that were friendly to christians is a demonstration of ignorance about the third reich.

You can't rely on quotes from hitler to prove that the nazis were christians, because hitler was crazy and constantly on cocaine(Look it up).

source: http://www.pewforum.org/2015/07/29/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/

Yes, thanks for backing me up here and linking a source that says that 35-60% of americans oppose gay marriage.

Edited 2/3/2016 20:44:48

This thread is an affront to the holy lord himself.
The marriage of two people of the same gender is a sin that should never be allowed.

I'm not that familiar with Nazi ideology however I have read Mein Kampf though not from first to last page. It was quite clear there that Hitler saw himself as something like a "working man" or an "honorable soldier" and he clearly despised intellectualism or all kinds of mystical beliefs. Some of Hitlers companions followed some mystical pre Christian Germanic believe system however Hitler was a "simple soldier".

From the Wikipedia page that Imperator linked:
"Documents used in evidence at the Nuremberg Trials concluded that the Nazis planned to de-Christianise Germany. [...] Among its articles: the National Reich Church of Germany was to claim exclusive control over all churches; publication of the Bible was to cease; crucifixes, Bibles and saints were to be removed from altars; and Mein Kampf was to be placed on altars as "to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book"; and the Christian Cross was to be removed from all churches and replaced with the swastika"

Edited 2/3/2016 21:10:09

I'm just saying, for an "atheist society", there is a lot of God involved, with Hitler publically invoking God's will, all the Third Reich soliers armouring the "God with us" motto and all...

I'm not saying that Hitler's primary motivation was religion, i don't belive that, but saying that Nazy Germany was an "obviously atheist society" is really laughably wrong.

Whatever was in Hitler's head, he sure did justified his actions with the Bible to get support from christians, and he got it. The church having spread antisemitic rethoric for centuries in Europe surely helped him a lot. Thats just facts.

Now why is it so easy to use the Bible to promote slavery, and murder of jews and homosexuals?
The answer is quite simple, it is because you can find mutliple passages in the Bible promoting just that.

Edited 2/3/2016 21:18:06

In the OT!!! good lord! I keep telling you don't attack the bible or defend it if you don't know enough about it!. Something I learned when I was 10 and debating on the issue of if higher taxes was the answer. I learned that if I had not read enough on the subject then just randomly attacking it made me look like a fool. So I read more on the subject, and wiped the kids ass next time I saw him.


BTW I can tell your just typing in " anti Christian arguments ect. " on your google search because the arguments your coming up with are all over the place and basically propaganda atheist stopped using years ago when they ' updated ' and formed new arguments.

Edited 2/3/2016 21:25:31

The OT is a big chunk of the Bible... and you may dismiss it (good for you) but as you can see Norman and a lot of christians aren't so eager to do so, and with good theological reasons. I know enough of the bible to attack it, i can garantee you that.

the arguments your coming up with are all over the place and basically propaganda atheist stopped using years ago when they ' updated '

lol wich argument is that? I'm arguing with facts. Why don't you quote me and tell me wich of my argument is "atheist propaganda"?