poor The Conservative, cornered between 2 atheists and 1 fundamentalist...lol

Im not a fundamentalist.

Im not even really a Christian.

No god created everything. Jesus came in after the OT as the son of god. Jesus was not present ( in the bible record at least ) at the beginning of creation, god was. I think your main confusion is based upon your getting god and Jesus' mixed up which is understandable

You may want to look into the concept of the Logos, aka 'the Word', which is referenced in Gospel of John: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos_%28Christianity%29

Christ as the logos

Christian theologians often consider John 1:1 to be a central text in their belief that Jesus is God, in connection with the idea that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equals. Though only in this verse is Jesus referred to as the Word of God, the theme recurs throughout the Gospel of John with variations.[1]

John 1:1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1%3A1&version=ESV) reads:

John 1:1English Standard Version (ESV)
The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Many self-proclaimed Christians interpret this to mean that Jesus (aka the Word; from the Greek 'Logos') was present at the supposed creation of the universe, at literally the very beginning of the OT narrative. In other words, the OT *starts* the story of Jesus. That's why so many fundamentalists are preoccupied with the OT, Genesis, the 10 Commandments, and all that.

Anyway, I think I have made my point. I hope hitch and Wct you can both see why I, a Christian, justifies supporting gay marriage

I'm glad you do, for sure. And I do understand the argument you are trying to make.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's an argument that will work on fundamentalists, for the very reasons I'm trying to illuminate with the Jesus-in-the-OT angle that many many Christians believe.

I don't believe Jesus was at the supposed creation, of course. I'm only trying to show that *many Christians* do believe that.

So if you don't address their beliefs about Jesus, and hence their beliefs in the importance of the OT, then I don't believe your argument will work very well on those kinds of believers.

Uh..uh...

Edited 2/2/2016 22:44:14

@wct

But even if you somehow get past the "Jesus = The Word = God",
you still have Jesus = the one and only God. I never could understand how christian could be fine with the Jesus is God but he is the Son who is different from the Father who is also God. And adding the Holy Ghost on top of that doesn't make it clearer

wow first religious-social-political "debate" I'm not apart of. Feels good. #SelfControl

Jai, I'm tapping you in.

*slaps away Tyrion's hand*

It's over, now. No one else needs to be involved.

True, but the debate... this is the worst debate ever.

It was a debate between people who were agreeing... the worst kind of stupidity...

Best short video I found in a brief search about Jesus = Logos = God = present at the beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A5mCttJQg0

haha i should try it Jai

I do want to get to the bottom of this son vs father thing though.

Here is how i've always "understood" it:

God is the one and only divinity, the alpha and the omega, he exists through time,and he is omnipresent.

Jesus is God's way of revealing himself to humans, so Jesus is actually God in human form, but it doesn't mean that he is bound to the body of human Jesus, since he is omnipresent. So Jesus is but another name for God, just refering to his human appearance. The son and father as i understand it is just an analogy since human Jesus (the body) is yet another creation of God and therefore a son of God, like all his creations. He is *The Son* only because the spirit inhabiting Jesus body is the actual spirit of God, not a human spirit (hence the Holy Spirit)

lol if i got something wrong, please enlighten me.

Edited 2/2/2016 22:49:22

Hello

I'm relatively well informed about all kinds of different believe systems that are associated with Christianity so maybe I can help with some confusion.

--> About the 10 commandments <--
Commandment Number 4: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Apart from some Jewish messianic Christianity or from two other sects that I know of the sabbath day isn't celebrated in Christianity. In more mainstream Christianity people like shifting the Sabbath stuff to the Sunday. What I believe from the Scriptures however is that all days are equal.

--> About the Old Testament commandments and Christian life <--
Of the 613 commandments most are about how to approach God in the correct form. This involves stuff like which animals to offer in what specific way or ceremonial washings and much more. I don't know of any Christian cults following those rules and if someone did he would certainly put himself outside of genuine Christianity. As a Christian I come to God with a way better sacrifice than the blood of some animals.

With the other laws that aren't about how to approach God you have to be more careful. Sadly there are huge parts of Christianity who believe something like the Christian church being the new Israel and the prophecies and promisses concerning Israel are now shifted to the church. This widespread but quite bizarre theology has to "spiritualize" clear bible passages and doesn't add up. Since I don't believe that I'm now a "spiritual Jew" commandments that God gave explicitely to the nation of Israel don't automatically apply to me. However when it comes to homosexuality then this doesn't follow the pattern that God intended when creating mankind so it's not allowed for a Christian to engage in homosexual acts. Apart from that the New Testament does indeed speak against homosexulaity.


No god created everything. Jesus came in after the OT as the son of god. Jesus was not present ( in the bible record at least ) at the beginning of creation, god was. I think your main confusion is based upon your getting god and Jesus' mixed up which is understandable
I'm not entirely sure what The Conservative is implying here however what he is writing is outside of genuine Christianity. Jesus is the creator of the whole universe: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-the-Creator.html

Edited 2/4/2016 06:33:17

Hey Norman, so what i take from what you wrote is that in your view, the Old Testament still applies to the Jews? My concern is this: how can a Jew ever follow Christ, since following Christ would essentially be denying The Law of the OT. Are you saying that Jesus never intended for Jews to follow him? Does it mean that Jesus wants the Jews to still kill homosexuals and follow every rule of The Law, as He first revealed it to them?

Edited 2/2/2016 23:16:29

But even if you somehow get past the "Jesus = The Word = God",
you still have Jesus = the one and only God. I never could understand how christian could be fine with the Jesus is God but he is the Son who is different from the Father who is also God. And adding the Holy Ghost on top of that doesn't make it clearer

One step at a time, man. :-) The Trinity thing, taken on its own, is a can of worms. Debating that would totally derail the discussion relating to gay marriage opposition.

Sure, it's illogical. It's a self-contradictory concept. But lots of people still believe it. So, if you instead just follow their own arguments and reasoning based on their own assumptions, you can connect the dots to illuminate *why* people behave the way they do (e.g. in opposing gay marriage), by showing how what they *believe* influences their *behaviour*.

Without understanding the belief, as illogical as it is, the behaviour appears much more 'random' and inexplicable. Without understanding the belief, you'll have a hard time untangling that belief, and helping a person untangle themselves out of it.

Discussion A: The Trinity is a messed up, self-contradictory idea.

Discussion B: Some people oppose gay marriage because they believe certain things about gods, Jesus, the Bible, the afterlife, homosexuality, etc. One of those things happens to be the Trinity thing (via the Logos concept), which happens to connect the NT Jesus to the OT anti-gay commandments.

We don't need to get bogged down in Discussion A to delve into Discussion B.

Edited 2/2/2016 23:06:33

@wct

Well if the Conservative wants to bring fundamentalist and litteralists to his position on gay marriage, you have to challenge him on his inconsistencies regarding the Bible and how he dismiss the OT. Because they don't dismiss it. And one key reason why they don't dismiss it is because of the Holy Trinity and the Jesus = God paradox. Because if Jesus = God, then there is no way to dismiss the OT, and then the only way out of this mess is to say that the OT only applies to the sons of Israel (Norman's point), so while the OT is Jesus' doing, it doesn't apply to Christians. Because how i understood it, in order for The Conservative to ditch the OT, he essentially has to renounce to the Holy Trinity and make it more of a polytheistic christianity, wich won't work well with a fundamentalist audience.

Your both wrong.

when Jesus came as God's son, he replaced the OT with the NT to prevent sacrifice from being necessary.

Both of you don't understand scripture.

I notice you didn't quote anything I've said, LV. *tsk, tsk*

I haven't said anything about what *I* understand from scripture. I'm talking about what I've seen and heard self-proclaimed *Christians* say they understand from scripture.

Quick question: How do *you* understand scripture, and how do you know you are *right* in your understanding?

Oh, and it's you're, not your. ;-)

(A thousand free-Hitchslap-virtual-dollars says he either doesn't reply back, or he complains about my (intentional) grammar nazism, but misses the points about what Christians say they believe and about using quotations properly to establish one's intellectual honesty. He may also accuse me of thinking I'm intellectually superior.)

Edited 2/2/2016 23:54:37

Any man who sleeps with another man should be stoned.

It helps, that's all I'm saying.

Most Christians barely read the Bible.

If you want to actually answer your questions, consult a theologian who has gone through a few years at a Bible college. I'm sure they'd be more than happy to answer your questions.