In this thread, I would like to address and discuss ideas on how the design of Clan League can be improved. I’ll start with concerns I observed and propose possible changes. All suggestions are for Clan League 17 onwards; I am not suggesting to do anything about the upcoming season.

Concern 1
Almost all clans struggle to fill their team slots, (first and foremost beginner clans, but) including the most stacked clans in Division A. At the same time, some players don’t make it on Division A line-ups because better players are available and they have no team experience whatsoever. Those players would be fielded if more 1v1 templates were available, which would improve player pool diversity. Additionally, there are far more 1v1 templates with high strategic value than is the case for team templates. Having so many team templates does not adequately represent what people like to play outside Clan League at all. On top of all these things, as per my experience, very few players are up to the commitment which a team slot in Clan League requires.

Proposed solution
Decrease the number of team templates by 1 each (one 3v3 instead of two, two 2v2s instead of 3) and drastically increase the number of 1v1 templates by the same number of slots (+5). This will keep the number of players required the same, but offer a much more beginner-friendly (and grandfathered clan-friendly) distribution, to which I would assign at least 80% of clans participating.

To be perfectly honest, not a single clan that would suffer from this readily comes to my mind. Even the clan that benefited the most from team templates in the past and won a CL season based on their team game performance, Fifth Column Confederation (management now part of Blitz), advocates removing team templates from Clan League altogether. I suggest a more moderate approach to address the same, that wouldn’t change the character of the competition.

+1

Whenever CL discussions come up, the 1v1 slots fill up, then it seems to be a matter of finding people to fill the remaining 2v2 and 3v3 slots, ending up with a bunch of players just signing up to play b/c those slots must be filled, not b/c they actually want to play a team game.

Concern 2
Team games suffer from massive delays by individual players using their banked time one by one. That can prevent games from finishing the picking stage for up to 108 days, which leads to even longer games than with vacations honoured.

Proposed solution
Every team should be eligible for 18 days banked time, not every player. That would make team games last approximately as long as 1v1 games, making them more fun for everyone. That means the banked time is to be set to 9 days in 2v2 games and 6 days in 3v3 games.

Regarding concern 1, I think your proposed solution would be a great improvement and a fair compromise between 1v1 and team games. I fully support this idea.

I am not sure that Concern 2 makes sense. If on the picking stage a player uses almost 15 days banked time, if another player changes their orders, then then BOTH players will have used the same amount of banked time on that stage (15 days). So the picking stage (or any single turn) can't go longer than 18 days.

If each of the 6 players in a 3v3 used all of their banked time on different turns, then you would have this delay over 6 picking/turns. I did not play last clan league, but the one before I did not sense this was a huge issue. It WAS a frequent issue when players could chain vacations (and thus the banked time was introduced).

Edited 12/12/2022 07:02:47

As long as no other player than the one using banked time changes their orders, my point still stands imo (even though I agree it's a lot more likely for any other turn than the picking stage).

I am not suggesting to re-introduce vacations, more like the opposite. I am sure everyone agrees team games are taking very long in comparison to 1v1, that's the reason why they were put at the beginning of CL (first games to be created) in the first place.

Edited 12/12/2022 08:26:03

Even the clan that benefited the most from team templates in the past and won a CL season based on their team game performance, Fifth Column Confederation (management now part of Blitz), advocates removing team templates from Clan League altogether.

That's just something I've said, I doubt everyone in Blitz and/or FCC share this opinion. Having said that, I think your first solution is a very reasonable suggestion, and one that I endorse.

On top of all these things, as per my experience, very few players are up to the commitment which a team slot in Clan League requires.

I can also attest to this, having been privy to the organisation of 11 clan lineups from CL9-CL15.

Edited 12/12/2022 07:49:50

Regarding the suggestions of alex, I think we should introduce more 2v2s rather than having less 2v2 games. The name of this whole thing is "Clan League", by clan, it is expected people work as teams rather than individuals. (1v1s) Although from what I've seen, for 3v3s, it's more of like the templates are being repeatedly introduced while only one (sometimes two) name(s) picking & telling others what to do (Like LF -- He tanked quite a lot in team games so HAWKS stays alive for the past seasons), so the number of 3v3s can indeed be reduced to 1, or if not, improve the variety of templates, so people can be avoid from completing some high quality tasks. I do believe more brilliant games can be distributed if more 2v2 games are presented.


Although, I think the problem people start to feel that team games are unnecessary is there are limited amount of strategic 3v3 templates.

Edited 12/12/2022 09:06:05

Here is some Discord Discussion going on:
https://discord.com/channels/580928945088888843/580937501011738644

Please share your opinion on concern 1 here (only one question):
https://strawpoll.com/polls/DwyoqJwLDgA

Good idea for a thread, good timing too.

Almost all clans struggle to fill their team slots, (first and foremost beginner clans, but) including the most stacked clans in Division A.

Having so many team templates does not adequately represent what people like to play outside Clan League at all.

From my experience both statements are true. But here's a question: Is this a problem? Or is it just a challenge that clans need to overcome to succeed in CL?

And the second question: What is CL supposed to be? The number 1 top competition in the game, or one that is a complementary to the other community events?
Because if it's option number one then I agree, more focus on 1v1s would be benificial. If it's the second option, then CL really needs to stay as the only real team-focused competition on the site.

Personally, I think that CL should remain a team-focused event. However it's not like the current 2:1 ratio of team slots to solo slots has been introduced based on some unquestionable scientific data or something. Turning one 2v2 into two 1v1s would switch the ratio into 10:8 still in favour of team games. I wouldn't be against that.
But I'd be heavily against removing a 3v3. We have Europe and its clones, multiple INSS templates and we need room for new invetnions in case any appear. That's too many options just for a single slot.

I read "CL really needs to stay as the only real-time focused competition on the site" and was so confused

mods in templates wluld be cool

^ I’m not sure if CLOTs are allowed create modded games. Modded QM templates are only allowed non-experimental mods iirc.

I like team templates, because
1) they are not very known: other players don't have an advantage of the template's knowledge
2) offer unique tactics


Maybe allow one player to bring multiple alts to team games?

Edited 12/12/2022 14:34:42

I agree with Rento. If we reduce the team templates in CL, we’re essentially removing team games from the only competition in which they exist (besides the 2v2 and 3v3 ladders). We already have many 1v1 competitions in existence and I don’t think we really need more. If clans are struggling to fill their team slots,

I’d suggest we allow people to play with their alts. Why can’t someone use all three of their slots to play a 3v3 by themselves? That would reduce the burden on some clans, enable others who want to play team games with each other, and still provide a competitive environment for team games.

Edited 12/12/2022 16:08:22

To the argument that it's "Clan League" and therefore needs "Team" games - I'm confused by this. If that's the argument, the we should just do 10v10 and 20v20 team games.

It's not "Team League" (or Clan Team League), just Clan League, meaning players from a clan band together to win/lose/rank as a single clan (team), not specifically play in teams. Pardon the comparison, but look at Clan Wars - same idea with focus on MD strategic templates instead of less strategic RT. Win/lose/rank as a team, and there is a team template in the mix, but mostly 1v1's. The idea should be that it is a clan-wide effort, not just a small handful of

But to Alex's point ... just do a survey. Ask people what they want (presumably that's what we're putting into CL templates - what people want to compete on?). I would surmise from looking at what clan members play excluding CL preparation games, that they like 1v1's more than 2v2's and 3v3's by a factor of 10x or higher. 2v2 & 3v3 are more niche templates. And when looking specifically at efforts to fill CL rosters, it takes about 10x the effort to fill the team templates from players 1/5 as interested as they are in the 1v1 templates.

καλλιστηι's point about letting people use alts could help the problem (being difficult to fill, players not really interested really just agreeing to b/c someone has to do it). But then, is it really a team game anymore? Without having some limits on how many players/how many alts/how many instances, this could just end up as all to most team games for a given clan being played by a single player. But with some limitations in place, this could definitely reduce the effort required to fill team templates.

To Beren's point, this is one of the competitions where team templates matter. Fair - but why are they here in CL? Do people really want them here? If so, why - simply b/c they don't exist elsewhere? What's stopping someone from organizing a clan team tourney (or league). It could be entirely team games.

As it stands now, there are 6 1v1 templates and 5 team templates, or stated differently, 6 slots per team for 1v1 games, 12 slots per team for team games. So an argument could be made that CL as stands now _is_ in fact Team League with some 1v1's thrown in. Should it be? Should they be separated? Or should the ratio of slots required for team vs solo games be adjusted? Goes back to Rento's question of what is CL actually meant to be? What is it we want it to fulfill for the community?

My maths above regarding banked time is wrong (regarding the 108 days picking stage), you can't use your full banked time after your teammate, yours would be deducted in full too. My point therefore only stands if it's used by different players in the course of the game, not just one turn. I think that's what Bonsai wanted to tell me too.

As of now, the results of the poll represent the status quo allocation of 1v1/team. If no major change is to be observed in the coming days, I am withdrawing my proposal.