@Krinid

I don't think you have wasted your AP.
But if you think so - just reset it. 150 coins is not a big deal

@Parsifal
I'm considering it. Part of my hesitation is the principle of having to pay for an AP allotment reset. It just feels like this should be like WZ name changes, where we get opportunities for a bunch of free ones. Or maybe 1 per 10 maps completed, or 1 per Ascension, something like that. I'll do the calculation of what I could spend that AP on, and if I have a good plan to make better use of it, I'll likely reset it. I can afford it, just don't want out of principle. lol (Preliminary analysis ... I could get 15% Increased Item Sell Values ... hmmm, that could be worth it).

The feeling of wasting AP on this AP Adv (Increased draft sizes) is in the disappointment of what I thought I was getting vs what I actually got AND NOT EVEN KNOWING IT because there's no way to compare the With vs Without benefits, you just see the result, and if WZI tells me it's +282%, I believe it (turns out it's +282% of a small part of it [fixed portion] that isn't material across an entire level + the same amount but received +282% quicker of the bulk of it [sliding portion]).

Unfortunately the opaque WZI mechanics veil the true benefits in cases like this. The math isn't evident (like additive bonuses for buffs, multiplicative bonuses for discounts - essentially whichever math benefits players the least - but at least Modifiers makes this obvious) and tbh many of the descriptions aren't clear enough to understand what it's actually doing (the descriptions don't lying, they're wrong, they're just insufficient for everyone to aptly understand), and thus we've done a lot of reverse engineering to figure out the true benefits. There are several aspects of the game of course that let the players shoot themselves in the foot if they really want to... just the nature of the game, I suppose. And it isn't so bad if it's least obvious that you're shooting yourself in the foot, like using a bunch of powers in the last 5 mins of a map (bunch of SACs, SMs, IMs, a Skip Level & an ML - all useless if you're finishing the map in 5 mins), using an ML on the Tutorial, using an IM on a camp with only 100 armies left, using a Fog Buster when there's only 1 territory left fogged [could be a Power or an Artifact, either is wasted, just a matter of wasting 50 coins vs 16 hrs cooldown] using "Rest Spent AP" 10 times in a row, aborting a map in the middle of it and restarting it (I just did this by accident by fat fingering on my mobile when having the WZI up and running - after using a bunch of powers and being in good position to steamroll the rest of the level, ultra nasty! But 100% my fault), etc - these are obvious bad uses of resources and players should at least realize their error quickly if they do it and never repeat it. But non-obvious ones like Increased Draft Sizes exist too, where you think you're getting good value out of it ... but not really, but you don't actually know it, so keep shooting yourself in the foot.

1 per ascension sounds like a nice deal, that way if you ascended a few times you can try various combos and see what works and what doesnt

The feeling of wasting AP on this AP Adv (Increased draft sizes) is in the disappointment of what I thought I was getting vs what I actually got AND NOT EVEN KNOWING IT because there's no way to compare the With vs Without benefits, you just see the result, and if WZI tells me it's +282%, I believe it (turns out it's +282% of a small part of it [fixed portion] that isn't material across an entire level + the same amount but received +282% quicker of the bulk of it [sliding portion]).

That is also more or less why I think that the individual ore production boosts aren't useful in practice. Sure, if I had three times as much copper production, I'd need at least four (probably more) stages of mine upgrades less, but besides the fact that this only affects one out of twenty-something ores, at the time in a level where I realize which ore I would like to have boosted, I don't have APs left (because I spend them as soon as I get them, to max out my payoff) and by the time I have new APs to spend, I don't know yet what I will need the most in the next level.

You don't get the chance to play around with different setups of advancements (not because of the 150 coin penalty, but because you cannot really compare one run of a level with another and the levels take ages (at least) on their first time) and compared to the advancement costs, the AP rewards are very little.

I made such a mistake twice: unlocking the useless Auto-upgrade AC and maxing out Increased AP.
Had to reset my points twice within 3 days.
So maybe I lost 300 coins but I gained a calm mind, which is more important

Edited 6/20/2021 23:44:46

Interesting, didn't realize you reset your AP twice. What was it that you didn't like about your first two attempts? If I read correctly, on one attempt you maxed IACP & unlocked auto-upgrade AC? What about this didn't work for you? Putting the AUAC aside, I thought this is kind of where you ended up now.

Anyhow, imho, I think WZI should empower this kind of experimentation (by providing a few free AP resets) and not inhibit it (by charging for each one). Finding the right mix is part of the game, part of the fun. And the choices must match playstyle, and partly due to game tweaks (it is beta after all) and changing playstyle due to learning as you go, it can change over time.

Totally agree, maxing out an AP Adv entirely before moving on isn't good. If I recall correctly, my order was some IACP to ~+100%, max JS, draft sizes to +250%, additional mercs to 45%, increased AP max, idle time to +300, cache money to max, ore sell values to max, additional mercs to 75%, discount mercs to max, IACP to +210%, money from bonuses to +85%.

Now I'm consider resetting ... but I think the only thing I regret is the Draft Size ... but will think it over before committing.

I never maxed IACP. I'm currently at 400% and I'm happy for now.
the Auto upgrade army camps interfered with my battle strategy. back then, SACA wasn't a thing, and with my strategy, I hit first two places most of the time.
Since April SACA is the only strategy.
As for maxing Increased AP that was just stupid! Investing half of all my AP into something that is going to pay off in only 2 ascensions was badly thought on my part.
Imo one should avoid it until at least 3rd/4th acension

Edited 6/21/2021 11:56:32

The issue with not doing Increased AP advancement is that Phase 2 is tricky to dump points into, particularly if you aren’t interested in battles. If you max Merc Discount and AC Discount you’ve only spent a fraction of what’s needed for Phase 3. What comes next?

Edited 6/21/2021 18:17:49

The challenge is that Increased Cache Resources is arguably the worst of the three (money, armies, resources) and Increased Alloy Sales is arguably the worst of the three (ore, alloys, items) - at least in my mind.

@graemes

The resources that you find in caches are free items that you can sell for a lot of money at the ed of the level when you purchase your mercenaries. In my case is often roughly a quarter of all money earned, so don't neglect it!
same for increased Crafters Speed. Every item you craft equals money for mercs.
So reaching to the needed 8000 points shouldn't be a big deal

@graemes

Increased Alloy Sell Values is definitely the worst sell value advancement, in my experience. I have tons of levels where I sell 0 alloys. I think you are probably right about increased resources being the worst of its set. However, it's only 990 AP to max. I've made 10%-13% of my total money selling ore that came from caches (plus whatever I gained from selling items) on my recent levels (Netherlands/China), so my gut says it's probably well worth it for what I invested. Cache money was 25%, in comparison.

I agree that Increased AP should at very least be started before ascending the second time, so that you can gain access to Increased Item Sell Values in Phase 3.

Edited 6/21/2021 19:39:06

Increase resource cache was for a long time my main income source (AP advancement together with resource cache artifact), I didn't even need to bother about producing alloys/items cause I got them "for free" from the caches and then sold them. Unfortunately Fizzer nerfed it a while ago but it should be still worth it given the low AP needed.

@Olja
What was it before and how was it nerfed? Didn't realize this.

@graemes, Master Jz
Agree, increased cache resources is the weakest of the three, but mainly b/c additional Money Cache is good (obviously) and it's fairly cheap to max out, and increased Army Caches is also obviously good, so the worst of 3 when 2 are amazing options (and I think this applies to every single map - +Money and +Armies is good on every map, right?) isn't necessarily a bad thing. But after the nerf ... is it bad? Not sure tbh. Seems like a decent option ... but not sure tbh. Maybe Olja can expand more since he's clearly got some experience with it.

Alloy Sell Values is definitely the worst of the 3 ... Ore Values is pretty good (some levels more than others, namely the ones with the more expensive ores), and Item Sell Values is good b/c selling items _already_ constitutes a large chunk of money earned on a level (usually my highest money earner), so obviously increasing that will be good. But selling alloys ... not so much. The cheaper bars aren't worth much, even thousands of them don't amount to much, and for the more luxurious ones, if you have the Ore buff already, the ore sells for a good price without having to smelt it, so getting both the Ore & Alloy buffs seems counterproductive. They're competing for sale of the same resources (ore) just a matter of whether it's raw (ore) or smelted (alloys), so may as well stick with the one that gives good results without requiring effort to produce, and free up your smelters for other stuff (though admittedly on my 2nd playthrough, this will be less important since I no longer need all those crazy bars for the Techs). Has anyone seen a good use case for investing in Alloy Sell Values?

@Krinid

before you'd get 1 pricy alloy or item. The problem with that was that increasing your cache by lets say 20% wouldn't do anything, because you can't get 1.2 Samariums. So Fizzer changed it, now you get almost the same value but in bigger quantities of lesser alloys/items

@krinid

Yeah as Parsifal said. In my case 2 times a pricy item for each later resource cache due to the 100% advancement and the epic artifact (e.g. 2 terbium bars or 2 samarium bars each time).

Now it's mainly ores you get for the later resource caches which sell for less money than the alloys/items, but the resource cache advancement still helps to get the early tech tree completed faster (as you get large amounts of, for example, aluminium bars or welding rods - often before you even have the recipe).

It also pays off for the arena games (you can partly see the difference when you equip/unequip the artifact). It's 180% times (or 230% with the +50% tech) of the "normal" resource cache, so it provides a good source of income.

Edited 6/21/2021 21:46:50

@Master Jz: Yeah, this is where I’m at as well. I’m just shy of 1.5 ascensions and am getting to the point of running out of Phase 1/2 things to dump points into. I had Phase 3 unlocked before (driven by auto stuff) but I re-spent my AP to focus on the core game and am finding it hard to find good uses for AP within Phase 2.

I think the answer is probably Increased AP, though I hear you guys saying Increased Cache Resources is also worth at least some investment.

Increased AP ftw! Don't listen to the naysayers. (;

I have mine @ 25%. I love the level end high AP rewards. Then +15% for clan wars bonus & +30% for 50 coins bonus ... sweet sweet sweet

@Master Jz, krinid:
One thing that I have given a fair bit of thought to is that the level end statistics are pretty misleading. You’re both talking about getting x% of money from caches, y% from item sales. These numbers are not time weighted, they are indexed heavily towards the late game.

Item sales, for example, make up a huge percentage of late game income (and therefore total income) but if that income all comes during the last two hours then it’s not saving you much time - if this were halved the level would only require an incremental two extra hours. The reason I think Ore Value is so strong is that this is a consistent boost that helps you get that Iron Mine upgraded earlier, that third Army Camp claimed earlier, that critical Welding Rod recipe learned earlier, etc. Even if it’s not a lot of money in late game terms, it is a lot of time saved and that’s what really matters.

This is particularly true with army camps. Army camps contribute 50%-75% at the very beginning (assuming 25% joint strike). They quickly drop down to less than 10% once I get my crafters going and find some hospitals. By the end, camps can account for just 1% of armies needed for the level. Overall though, they contribute more than 1% to my speed.

My items account for 0% at the beginning, then have a sharp jump once I get my crafters going. Once I get the crafters going, my items will be my dominant source of income for the rest of the level (90%+ of the completion time). Money caches are usually in 2nd place.

@graemes
There are essentially 3 phases to the longer WZI maps ... the beginning, the middle, the end. If you have good AP Adv/Artifacts to help in the start, you get going quickly, but then might get stuck getting to better recipes.

The middle game is probably the most flexible, b/c there's lots of options, maybe you focus on recipes, perhaps on hospitals, perhaps on raising army camps, but it has to set you up to get to the end game.

And the end game ... if you didn't set it up right, will drag on and on and on, you either won't have enough money for mercs or used them up already, don't have enough army income to make any significant progress, and every time you do the calculations, it's going to take another 10 hours to take another territory, and you still have >400 left. Particularly on your first playthrough of levels, it's easy to get stuck in this pattern.

So while it's true that 90% of the armies required will come in the last 10% of the map, if you don't have yourself set up for success, that 10% could take >50% of the time to finish.