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New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 11:07:23


Redqueen
Level 59
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3 turns per month average play speed.

At this rate, lets say an average game takes about 3 to 4 months to end and a longer game what ? 8 months , even one year maybe ?

"So what's the problem ?" you might ask me , if the time control of the game is long ( say 10 days/turn ) and everyone plays slow, I'm sure there are games which lasted way longer than that.

But what if only one player plays slow ? What if in a 3 day/turn tournament this player never uses the commit orders button, but instead just gives his orders in and lets the game auto commit once the 3 days are up ? What if he does that every single game of every tournament he plays in ? Is that still ok ?

Multi-day game (players are expected to take one or two turns per day) - when creating a MD game, this is the WZ description. Sure sometimes people are busy and have to take longer , but that is different, as opposed to refusing to use the commit button !

Now lets look at this players average play speed: https://www.warzone.com/Profile?p=4942165064

9 days 15 hours ! This is no joke !

So in a 3 v 3, 3 day/turn RoR tournament I currently play in, this person ( or maybe he uses some kind of a bot, not really sure ) is on the enemy team. Obviously he always takes 2 days 23 hours for each turn so after 2 days and 23 hours he cluster picked over his team mates making sure the game is lost for them from the start and now he does what he does best: he ensures this game will last as long as possible !

So is he a troll ? Is he mentally ill (maybe that's how psychiatric patients play) ? He uses a bot that is not programmed to commit the orders ?

I think that does not matter at all, what is important imo, is that we have a tool to keep players like this Gilgamesh out of our games and especially tournaments.

Just like there are prerequisites for boot rate, win rate, why not have a prerequisite for average play speed ?

So if I create a tournament for instance, I can be sure there will be a certain progress of the games / rounds by not allowing players with world record breaking long play speeds to join ...
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 11:09:26


JK_3 
Level 61
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+1, average turn speed would be a great prereq to have!
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 11:11:18


Hodop 
Level 60
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+2 Agreed.
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 12:39:16


(ง︡'-'︠)ง let's fight!! 
Level 62
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ehhmmm boottimer?
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 12:54:03


JK_3 
Level 61
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The issue with boot time is that you want it to be ~3 days in case someone is busy for a few days, and so you can think over your moves if needed. Players are not supposed wait out the full turn every turn.

To prevent that, you could 10 days of banked time on top of a 1,5 day boot, but that would lead to turn one taking 11,5 days, and people getting booted on turn 2...

Using increasing banked time doesnt solve the issue either.

Stalling is just like booting, its quite annoying to most players but not forbidden, so a prereq can/should be used to prevent unwanted players from joining the game.
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 12:55:40


Annabeth Chase
Level 57
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I know another player like that (might be me), and yeah, it'd be a great addition
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 12:59:38


Lucky Charms
Level 55
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I think that's a great idea, it would help hosts avoid players I've met who intentionally wait as long as possible to take turns
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 13:11:11


Murk 
Level 56
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To prevent that, you could 10 days of banked time on top of a 1,5 day boot, but that would lead to turn one taking 11,5 days, and people getting booted on turn 2...


But that's exactly what you want, right?
It boots those who consistenly take long turns - just like you want - and gives the rest the opportunity to take a long turn once or twice.

There's also the option to give new banked time every turn. If you set boot time at 1.5 days but give 0.5 days banked time every turn, players who always wait for the timer to run out will never take more than 2 days for their turn.
On the other hand, it allows faster players to quickly build up a time bank so they can take longer turns every now and then.
Which, again, seems to be exactly what you want.
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 13:22:24


(ง︡'-'︠)ง let's fight!! 
Level 62
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you can set a standard boottime of 1d standard boottime and +5d banked time if you have busy days though

I mean on the other hand you would want to exclude players who simply fullfill the set boottimer. I dont think that is very fair, especially since you have the option already of setting a short boottimer with added banked time.

Edited 1/20/2021 13:26:20
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 13:36:48


Redqueen
Level 59
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@ Murk:

You have a good point with using banked time , but getting people booted , that's not what any one wants lol

Imagine you play in a team game tournament and one of your team mates gets booted like that and you lose the game because of that, that's not fun , right ?

The idea here is to have a tool that allows you to block trolls - that just won't use the commit button, not even by mistake and instead let the game auto commit every single turn of every single game they play - from your games and tournaments !

@
(ง︡'-'︠)ง let's fight!!:

so you think that not using the commit button , but just letting the game auto commit is an ok way to play your MD games ?
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 13:39:08

Phoenix
Level 22
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It's a fact that if you want to abuse any system, no-one (and more so no automated system) is able to hinder you. But that is no argument to endure any dubious behavior. And sure, if Fizzer spends his time implementing this, some other feature/bug-fix will be delayed. I'm no multi-player kind of guy currently, but I support this. This is after all a game and by definition a game should bring joy (at least if you don't lose every time). And if stalling players make the matches not enjoyable anymore for some players and if this mechanism is able to improve the situation for them (and make it significantly harder for "bad" players to stall matches), then I see no real argument against it.

No host is forced to make use of this option. No player is forced to join such a match.

I don't know how the booting system evolved (I wasn't around for too long now), but [rhetorical questions] Does it really need three different booting timers? Wouldn't one be sufficient? [/rhetorical question]
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 13:54:18


(ง︡'-'︠)ง let's fight!! 
Level 62
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at a very high level players want to think multiple times about their moves before they commit. The autocommit is then often the limiting factor. There it happens more often, yes.
(Clan League Division A)

But this is actually not your point. You want to have a faster game. You wouldnt have a problem with it if you had 1 day boot and he commits with autocommit. or am I wrong? So where is the problem?

Did he ever say he plays so slow because he wants you to boot?

And still my question you have to answer. Do you prefer to exclude players that actually fullfill the boottimer but rather play slow?

Edited 1/20/2021 14:02:03
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 14:07:09

Rento 
Level 60
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I think WZ provides all the tools you need for what you want.
You can set a short boot time, like 1 day.
You can give some days of banked time at start, as a lifesaver in extraoridinary situations, or you can give extra banked time with every day as the game goes on.
This will force the players to play quick or be booted. And if you don't want booters to even enter your games, there's a boot% prerequisite you can use.

Are you sure you need something else?
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 14:58:18


Max Scherzer 
Level 62
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The only thing is turn speed is often very deceptive. Like me, for instance, I have a very good multi day turn speed at 3 and a half hours. However, that is only because I play RT pace at some of my games, while about half I use full boot time.

So I think the filter is a good idea, however not dependable.
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 15:20:11


Redqueen
Level 59
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@
(ง︡'-'︠)ง let's fight!!:

I'm sure that when you use the auto commit feature in your Clan League Division A games, you do so because you discuss the orders with your team mates, develop a strategy for the next turns, try to come up with predictions etc, and don't do it as a habit.

My point is, I like the standard 3 day boot time control, I like to join tournaments with that time control, I just think it would be great to have a prerequisite that would enable the tournament creator to simply and easily block players that are obviously abusing the auto commit feature.

He did not say why he plays like this , he did not say any thing for that matter.

Now if, I "have to" answer your question, I don't want to exclude players that play slow, I only want to exclude players that never use the commit orders button and thus imo abuse the auto commit feature. A way I could do so is with an average play speed prerequisite, I would set it to say a max of 4 day per turn play speed so trolls that have 10 days per turn average don't make it in my games or tournaments.

@Rento:

Yes, i'd love it if there was also an average play speed prerequisite, since some tournament creators seem to like the standard 3 day per turn time control and I guess it's useful to have more time per turn available for team tournaments.

From another point of view, why is there this statistic available on the player profile in the first place ? Just as a curiosity ? I know clans use it , I know that some clans don't allow players in if they don't have a fast enough play speed for instance. So I think it would be cool to have it as a prerequisite for games and tournaments too.
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 15:55:26


Redqueen
Level 59
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Well ... just now a friend brought this to my attention:

https://www.warzone.com/wiki/index.php?title=Open_Seat_Prerequisites&oldid=2501

So it seems in the past there were these prerequisites available !!

In that case, to bad they were removed !!

Edited 1/20/2021 16:53:21
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 16:17:03


krinid 
Level 60
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While I'm far from the 9d average move stalling mark and I never use the auto-commit feature, I am a fairly slow mover. Honestly, my games are sorted in the list from Least to Most time left, and every day I play through the list until the minimum time remaining in the next game is 24h, then I continue playing if I have time/inclination, or stop if I'm busy or have had enough WZ for the day.

Sometimes if I happen to have joined more games than I end up actually having time for, this causes me to play more than I want to, and if I really don't have enough time, I get booted. Other times, it's just right. When I find the actual right balance for # of ongoing games vs what's going on in life at the time (which btw changes on a weekly to monthly basis, and many games take longer than this, so whatever the conditions were at the start of the games isn't the same as when they reach middle or end stage), I make probably 2/3+ of my game moves in ~36h stretch. Also depends on who else is moving quickly, quite often I'm actually not the slowest one.

But ain't no way I'm playing "2-3 moves per day" in each game like this thread suggests everyone should. WHO BELIEVES THIS ?? Most games just don't progress at that pace -- NOR SHOULD THEY. There are MD games with varying timers for a purpose, to give people variation in how they want to play. I prefer to play 1 move every 2-3 days.

It comes down to this - if you want to play quick paced games, use better boot timers & banked time settings that align to that. BUT PLEASE stop telling everyone how they should be playing the damn game! There's a reason WZ does not allow reporting a player for using up all the available time -- b/c it's there to be used. If you don't want people to use the time, don't give people that time.

That said, I totally agree that quick pace is an option you should have available, and "average move time" prereq is a good means of increasing your chance of getting players who align to that, so think that'd be a great addition.

Truth be told, if I end up being the last one to move each turn in a game, especially a tournament, it's not a great feeling -- I don't _want_ to be the one holding up a tournament so that 1 leg is on the 2nd round while everyone else is waiting in the semi or the final for my leg to catch up. But I also am not willing to rearrange my life to make 3 moves a day to appease people who want to play more quickly. I'm totally fine opting out (or just forcibly not being eligible due to average move time prereqs, etc) of any games where I would be that guy. But I never know going into a game/tourney that everyone else has an average move speed of 6 hrs, so I'll hold up this game.

Btw ... my actual average move speed is 1 day.

As for wanting to have a higher boot time to give people the option to delay if they get busy ... well that's what Vacations are for. But alas, that's a bigger topic. (SIDE TOPIC: FIX VACATIONS!)
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 16:31:28


JK_3 
Level 61
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Anyone know why Fizzer removed most of the prereqs that were once present?

The player's level
Percentage of the time that the player wins in ranked 1v1 games (0 to 100)
Percentage of the time that the player wins in ranked 2v2 games (0 to 100)
Percentage of the time that the player wins in ranked 3v3 games (0 to 100)
Percentage of the time that the player wins in ranked 2v2v2 games (0 to 100)
Percentage of the time that the player wins in ranked 3-player FFA games (0 to 100)
Percentage of the time that the player wins in ranked 4-player FFA games (0 to 100)
Percentage of the time that the player gets booted (0 to 100)
Number of times the player has been booted
Average move speed of the player in real-time games (in minutes)
Average move speed of the player in multi-day games (in minutes)
Number of days since the player signed up
Number of multi-player games the player has joined
Number of multi-player games the player is currently in
Number of multi-player games the player has completed
Number of multi-day multi-player games the player has completed
Number of real-time multi-player games the player has completed
Current rank in the 1v1 ladder
Current rating in the 1v1 ladder
Whether the player is a member or not

https://www.warzone.com/wiki/index.php?title=Open_Seat_Prerequisites&oldid=2501
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 17:50:48


Ursus 
Level 64
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+1 from me, would be a good addition.
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 18:27:34


(ง︡'-'︠)ง let's fight!! 
Level 62
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Always when someone is being accused of stalling and playing slow. The slow player usually has my emphaty. Especially if certain players are picked out and the threadtitle uses exclamation marks!! Sry for my biasism xD

Checking Gilgameshs profile he is in 107 games. I clearly dont support to have that many games at once. But I also do not judge him for having fun in playing this many games at once. If thats the way he has fun to play this game. Why not? If he plays diplos or team games, it might be the best way to read messages of allies or teammates to know what is going on. If you commit too early in Diplos, you might not notice how players clinch against you to fight you the next turn together or what ever. I always try to understand the player I am opposing, before I judge him.

The mentioned website with the prerequisits is from 2013.. I would not count on what stands in the wiki. Most articles seem to be of a similar age. However. It is not long ago there tournaments did not start automatically as long they havnt been filled. Since you was only allowed to invite a limited number of players you got stuck soon and big tournaments never started. Iirc there have been lots of complaints and the suggestion to simply uninvite players to invite new players. But it was not implemented. The reasoning was that the players might still want to join and would be sad if they were uninvited.

As you would say. This is no joke!

That might be a reason why this prerequisits have been removed. To not exclude players that play according to the rules.
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 18:37:17


(ง︡'-'︠)ง let's fight!! 
Level 62
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I dont know if I support your suggestion or not. It has its reasoning I have to admit. But I believe overall there are easier ways to prevent to oppose slow players. Such as not joining 9d boot games.

If you use up your whole banked time in first turn thats your own fault. Just dont play that slow and you won't use it up. (I argument with your own arguments (I couldnt resist)
New prerequisite needed ! This is no joke !: 1/20/2021 19:19:29


│ [20] │MASTER│ Rikku │ I love my wife │ • apex │
Level 61
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But what if only one player plays slow ? What if in a 3 day/turn tournament this player never uses the commit orders button, but instead just gives his orders in and lets the game auto commit once the 3 days are up ? What if he does that every single game of every tournament he plays in ? Is that still ok ?

Yes
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