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The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 01:10:59


Eklipse
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Ok, so sensitive topic here. I might get a lot of hate for this, but it's something I wanted to bring up. Why is everyone so hostile and offended by the Confederate Flag? It's just a flag like any other, and it's little more than a historical artifact. I'll address the usual claims against it one by one.

1.) People saying that the Confederate flag equals racism and thus should be banned are either ignorant or being intentionally blind. Was the Confederacy racist? Yes. Did it do bad things based on that racism? Yes. But guess who else did it? The United States. The U.S flag was one of racism and slavery for FAR longer than the Confederacy. Should we now consider the U.S flag to be racist and offensive as well?

2.) We need to learn at some point to let go of history. I can understand while African Americans would hold a hatred of the Confederacy. However, demanding the Confederate flag to be banned because of what the South did to African Americans would be like the Native Americans asking for the U.S flag to be banned because of the horrible things America did to the natives back then.

3.) Freedom of expression applies here. You can't ask someone to take down a flag just because it offends you. A person should be free to fly a Confederate flag as long as they don't start publicly endorsing hate crimes or the like.

I'm sure there's still some things I missed, but those were the main things that came to mind. Feel free to discuss.
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 01:17:08


Benjamin628 
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Interesting... Replace Confederacy with any country and it still applies (pretty much)
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 01:25:34


Richard Sharpe 
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People ARE free to hang confederate flags. Standard first amendment. Not sure why you'd even make that point.

Of course, through the same free speech rights people are also free to call them racist assholes
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 01:31:36


Kur
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For me, its less about the racism and more about holding onto the rebellious attitude of the Confederates. I lived in the south for some time and its kinda of a way to hold onto their pride(in my opinion anyway). They lost the war so I think they should be the ones to get over it. :/

But as you said, let by-gones be by-gones. They do have a right to express themselves in such a manner.
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 01:32:30


Eklipse
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Not sure why you'd even make that point.

Have you not heard about all the public outcries with people demanding it be removed from all public sight?

Of course, through the same free speech rights people are also free to call them racist assholes

I agree, but that's not even my main point. The main idea behind this thread is how ridiculous it is for people to accuse the flying of the Confederate flag of being racist, or somehow a hate crime.
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 01:33:12

[WOLF]Andrew
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Why so hostile? It has been taken up by rednecks as a symbol of racism, white supremacy, and other such ideals.
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 01:36:34


Darth Darth Binks
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Abraham Lincoln didn't want to abolish slavery, he wanted to stop its growth and development. But after the defeat of the Confederacy, it was as good a time as any to end it.

I don't think it should be flown. Reason being is because the Confederacy lost. It got destroyed and was taken back by the U.S.A.. It no longer exists. A flag, above anything else, is a symbol of a country, a people. To be flying a confederate flag is to say that you belong to the Confederate states, or you come from a family with Confederate origins, which is basically impossible. The Confederate States didn't last half a generation. So with no country to represent, and with no family to come from the past country's origins, The Confederate flag is nothing but a cool design, and at best, an insult to the country in which you live.
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 01:56:29


Nex
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I'm a South Carolinian. As we speak, the state house (two miles from my apartment) is being picketed by people demanding we take down the Confederate flag.

Just thought I'd share that little fact. I'm not adding any more to this argument. :)
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 01:58:59


Richard Sharpe 
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There is a difference in demanding it's removal from private property and public property. Last I saw, the outcry was over Texas denying its allowance on license plates which is correct. State sponsorship of the flag implies agreement with the bigotry and racism it stands for.

Private property can do what it likes but public property is limited and rightly so.
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 02:13:28


Жұқтыру
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I don't see what's the problem here. Should these flags




be banned because they allowed slavery into the 1800s (and beyond)?
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 02:56:41


Eklipse
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State sponsorship of the flag implies agreement with the bigotry and racism it stands for.

Did you not read my first two points? The United States in it's existence has been guilty of the same exact bigotry and racism that people align with the Confederate flag. But yet there's no outcry to ban the U.S flag. It's hypocrisy. Everyone wants to blame problems on a dead country and then turn a blind eye to the past of existing ones.

If the Confederate flag represents bigotry and racism than so does the American flag. Heck, nearly every flag in the world is representative of hate if we're going to use this kind of historical grudge based logic.

Edited 6/19/2015 02:57:01
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 03:32:11


QueefBalls
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On a fundamental level, I agree with your point. It's part of freedom of expression.

But the confederacy seceded because of slavery. A lot of sympathizers will tell you it was states' rights, but one of those rights was the right to decide whether or not slavery could be legal. So no matter what, it's always going to be seen as a symbol of the racism associated with that area in that time period.

Either way, it's one thing for a private citizen to hang a Confederate flag on their wall or on top of their car. But then you have South Carolina, which became one of the richest states BECAUSE of the slave trade, flying it on their state capitol. Pretty big slap in the face to a lot of people that have had to fight so hard and are still oppressed to this day.

So as a government, you have to ask yourself if this is really the symbol you want on display outside of the building where you're supposed to be making laws to improve the lives of your state's citizens.

And this is all aside from the fact that their state is now at the center of discussion because of an act of terrorism involving a shooter who flew the flags of apartheid on his jacket.
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 04:31:05


Жұқтыру
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Did you not read my first two points? The United States in it's existence has been guilty of the same exact bigotry and racism that people align with the Confederate flag. But yet there's no outcry to ban the U.S flag. It's hypocrisy. Everyone wants to blame problems on a dead country and then turn a blind eye to the past of existing ones.

If the Confederate flag represents bigotry and racism than so does the American flag. Heck, nearly every flag in the world is representative of hate if we're going to use this kind of historical grudge based logic.


Well, the Confederacy, as I understand: Legal slavery 100% of its existence, in a time in which slavery was already fading out in half the world. America, slavery 50%? of its existence.
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 14:05:39


OxTheAutist 
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Don't start an argument over with Juq over what flags are offensive. You'll end up running each other in circles.
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 15:04:38


Beren • apex 
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Another objection to the flag is that it was literally the flag of traitors to the USA...

Add to that the fact that it's largely flown by people who claim that they are the most patriotic of Americans, and that liberals hate America. That seems a touch hypocritical to me...
The Confederate Flag: 6/19/2015 18:12:53


Eklipse
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Another objection to the flag is that it was literally the flag of traitors to the USA

The current state flags of all former CSA members fall under this category as well, but again, no outcry there. Every single reason that's been given to label the Confederate flag as "racist" or "offensive" also applies to the national flag and a good chunk of the state flags.

But it's easier for people to just lump all the blame into one source.
The Confederate Flag: 6/20/2015 02:15:49


DomCobb
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I don't think they should be flown. The flag is a message of rebellion. It should not fly in public areas unless historically. If that is too hard, just have Mississippi change their state flag to exclude the Confederate flag portion of the canton.
The Confederate Flag: 6/20/2015 03:12:41


knyte 
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Symbols acquire meanings based on their use. The Confederacy wasn't the only group to use the Confederate Flag. Drive around Texas sometime and the people who use the Confederate Flag usually use it as a protest against the federal power of the goverment, usually the power to override and block state-level prejudice.

As you pointed out, lots of flags have been flown by people who did bad things. I suppose one poor comparison would be between how a Mississippi-born African-American (with a family background of slavery) perceives the Confederate Battle Flag and how I, someone whose country was colonized and later split into three by the British, would perceive the British flag.

However, most people who fly the British flag do so outside the context of imperialism. When people fly the British flag, they do it with the intent to either mark something as British, take pride in British history (without explicitly condoning imperialism), or appreciate modern British culture (James Bond, anyone?). Similarly, when someone flies the American or Russian flag, they're probably not doing so to condone the actions of the Jackson government or Putin's invasion of Georgia and Ukraine.

The reason the Confederate Battle Flag (not necessarily the Stars and Bars) is so controversial, however, is because it's flown with the message of:

- condoning the actions of the Confederacy
- perpetuating racism and the oppression of African-Americans
- supporting unlawful behavior by a state in violation of the 14th Amendment

These were by and large the majority of post-Civil War uses of the Confederate Flag. That's why it's acquired that message, just like the Flag of the Third Reich is associated with racism and fascism, because that's what it's used to represent.

Flags, like words, are symbols that acquire meanings based on their usage. When people say "fuck you," they're sending a specific message that we're only able to understand because we've come to associate that specific combination of sounds or letters with the message itself. Similarly, when people fly the Confederate Battle Flag, the American flag, or the Soviet flag, it's a form of communication that sends a message acquired based on context and usage.

A telling example of this is how the Stars and Bars (the actual flag of the Confederacy) doesn't have the same connotation as the Confederate Battle Flag- because the Stars and Bars isn't flown often enough to acquire a strong message, and is also flown in a greater variety of contexts. It's kind of like how the Rising Sun Flag has a different meaning in the American community than the actual flag of Imperial Japan.

Edited 6/21/2015 03:02:51
The Confederate Flag: 6/20/2015 03:18:59


Benjamin628 
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If that is too hard, just have Mississippi change their state flag to exclude the Confederate flag portion of the canton.

Good luck with that.

Agree with the people saying that some flags are worse. But you should be allowed to fly whatever flag you want, especially on Private property.
The Confederate Flag: 6/20/2015 03:32:59


Darth Darth Binks
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Only on private property.
The Confederate Flag: 6/20/2015 05:13:58


Blortis 
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I say ban it because I hate the fuckin Duke Boys and their lack of respect for law enforcement.
The Confederate Flag: 6/20/2015 05:21:43


Major General Smedley Butler
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xD
The Confederate Flag: 6/20/2015 09:08:47


Thomas 633
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The Confederate Flag: 6/20/2015 09:23:30


Major General Smedley Butler
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what's to the left of Cletus's foot?
The Confederate Flag: 6/20/2015 09:33:41


Thomas 633
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I believe Matt Groening's signature.
The Confederate Flag: 6/20/2015 09:40:57


Major General Smedley Butler
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Looked like a tin foil top hat
The Confederate Flag: 6/20/2015 12:56:50

[WOLF]Andrew
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I agree with knyte here. It should be banned on public property, simply because of the message(s) it represents. Maybe fly it on historical sites like Gettysburg and Antietam and Appomatox Court House, but at the South Carolina State Capitol Building, I say throw it into the sea.
The Confederate Flag: 6/20/2015 16:56:16


Fleecemaster 
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Does this mean I get to fly my Nazi flag? I mean, I know they killed the jews, but that was ages ago, that's history man.
The Confederate Flag: 6/21/2015 04:50:12


Rogue Nikolai Krogius
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Why would you ban it? Under the American flag, Americans have done FAR worse things than the Confederates.

We NUKED two cities particulary targeting innocent civilians. The American flag ment a lot of racism and hatred to the Japanese people post WWll. Should the American flag be banned in America?

Or how about the Swedish invasion of Finland? A large portion of the population of Finland was wiped out by the Swedes when they invaded Finland in the middle ages. The Swedish flag is still hated in Finland and is seen as a sign of oppression. Should the Swedish flag be outlawed in Finland?

Or how about the German Invasions of France? French people were oppressed, put in slave camps, forced to work as slaves building defenses against a liberation, and some were simply put in the death camps all under the German flag. Should the German Flag be banned in France?

Or how about the Polish enslavement of the Lithuanian peasants? Should the Polish flag be banned in Lithuania?

The "pro-banning" argument utterly falls apart. If we banned all theses flags then we would have no place to have the Olympics because every state would have some grievance against another.

Everybody should have a god damned right to use any flag they want. All it is, after all is just a bunch of colors. Americans are way too damn sensitive. Americans just can't handle themselves if one minority group is offended or another is offended. Its bull shit. In Europe they all hate each other but at least have half a brain not to ban each others flags.

And here in here lies the problem. AMERICANS ARE SOME OF THE STUPIDEST PEOPLE TO EVER WALK THE EARTH!

So stop arguing about whether or not you might see a confederate flag on a court house and be offended because honestly if 200 years isn't enough time to forget about the atrocities that the south did then you need to learn how to forgive and forget. Simple as that.
The Confederate Flag: 6/21/2015 05:03:09


Red
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It's hard to forgive and forget when you're still being discriminated.
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