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Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 19:06:54

worldtraveller 
Level 60
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The first rule of Warlight is "You shall be respectful to other players at all times". In any sport or game, in any country in the world, it's considered very disrespectful to tell your opponent to give up, no matter how well you think you're doing. This is universal social etiquette. So why on Warlight do some people think it's OK to tell their opponent to surrender? Either they don't have enough information to judge whether to surrender - I've seen people demanding that their opponent surrender when there is no way for them to know each other's income - or they do and they decided not to. That's their choice and no-one else's.

Also, people seem to not know what "gg" means. It means "good game", and it's polite to say it when the game is over, or when you are leaving the game. It does not mean "I think I've won the game" or "I think you should give up now", and it's very rude to use it in that way.
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 19:09:41


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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It is equally rude to drag out a game where the outcome is known to all parties. In sporting events, the time/length of the game is predetermined so there is no real concern regarding the losing team(s) delaying the inevitable. This is not the case with Warlight.

As I see it, the only reason to delay a clearly lost game is in the hopes of winning via boot, a more dishonorable approach than requesting the surrender of a vanquished foe.

Note that refusing to surrender can also be interpreted as a failure to be respectful to other players.

Edited 5/6/2015 19:11:00
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 19:12:12


QueefBalls
Level 59
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Anyone who gets mad at someone else for not surrendering is a grade A bozo.

If you're so certain you're gonna win, just finish out the last few turns. It's not that hard.

Personally, I almost never surrender unless it's a 1v1 and I'm sure I'm gonna lose. But I don't understand these players who hold it against anyone for not surrendering.
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 19:17:02

worldtraveller 
Level 60
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It is equally rude to drag out a game where the outcome is known to all parties.

I agree, but of course if you think your opponent is being rude by not surrendering, telling them to surrender is still not appropriate - two wrongs don't make a right, as even pre-schoolers know. And also, what is known to the people who demand surrender is typically not known to the people they are addressing their demands to.

Edited 5/6/2015 19:17:32
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 19:18:47

worldtraveller 
Level 60
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If you're so certain you're gonna win, just finish out the last few turns. It's not that hard.

Hear hear! Couldn't agree more.
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 19:28:50


Norman 
Level 57
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Well, I find it quite rude to not surrender in a ffa when the only thing you can still achieve is stall the player wo legitimately defeated you in a 1v1 so he won't win the game. I played some Greece autogame ffa and this happened about 6-7 times in a row to me with pretty much exactly the same pattern.
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 19:32:41


Sephiroth 
Level 60
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Not surrendering and just carrying the game on when it's obviously over is highly disrespectful.

The only reason why one could want to delay the end of a game is because it's a ladder or tournament game and they don't want the next one to start just yet; in that case if they say it in chat there's nothing wrong with it
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 19:35:55


Pooncrew 
Level 60
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So playing a game till the end is disrespectful?
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 19:50:55

[PHD] JiaLak
Level 56
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If you're going to fight, you should fight. Just because you might lose doesn't mean you can't win. If you are severely outnumbered, different story.
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 19:58:01

worldtraveller 
Level 60
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Not surrendering and just carrying the game on when it's obviously over is highly disrespectful.

Well, what's obvious to you might not be obvious to your opponent. But I hope you are agreeing that issuing a demand for anyone to surrender is extremely disrespectful.
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 19:59:10


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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If it is not possible to win, you should surrender...period. If it is possible to win, play on (even if you are behind). It is that simple.

The sticking point is whether you KNOW it is over or not.

If it is not obvious, I have no problem with people playing it out longer. I have surrendered games before only to see it without fog and realize I was mistaken and had a chance.

BUT, if you are way behind and have no chance, why run around? What is gained from that? Don't tell me experience, that is garbage. You'd learn more in a 2 minute discussion about the game with your opponent than you would in 100 turns of running around just to prolong things. If your goal is to learn, then ask questions. If your goal is to just keep playing because you are allowed to, then you might be trolling. You won't learn anything from playing out a hopeless situation.

As to what is OK in a chat. I almost never suggest it is over to a player, because I hate it when people do that to me. But if they are taking 5 or 6 turns when they are clearly way behind, I might make a playful comment to suggest it is over. Something like "turn 5 when I broke your only bonus was a back breaker, glad I guessed right there." It isn't telling them they must surrender, but highlighting that their back is in fact broken, in case they don't realize it.

I will never demand a surrender, because that only makes them more likely to stall. But you cannot tell me I should not hold it against someone and maybe blacklist them if they stall for dozens of hopeless turns.

You people with your "play to the end" comments...I wonder how you felt about the Tampa Bay Bucs going full tilt on the last snap (a kneel down) in a game last year. Or what about guys taking runs at players in the closing minutes of a blowout in NHL? There is a level of sportsmanship here. And it is a GAME. If this was real life, I would do everything I could to survive. But in a game, you live to fight another day. If your reputation is worth risking by playing those extra turns, then by all means.

Edited 5/6/2015 20:05:01
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 20:02:03

DanWL 
Level 62
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Playing to the end is only disrespectful IF you (the opponent) hasn't surrendered, when it's clear who the winner is. In my opinion, it's OK to play to the end in multi-attack on a small map such as ME and MME.

Surrendering on Single Player isn't needed because it's already clear that your playing at a disadvantage within the first 6 turns on the challenges, unless it's clear that the AIs will beat you.

Edited 5/7/2015 06:54:33
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 20:03:10


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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Chris nails it perfectly. I am more than willing to give advice after a game but not if they pointlessly drag it out.

If the game is in doubt then yes, it is rude to demand a surrender. But if incomes differ by a factor of 10 and both sides know this (very easily done) then requesting a surrender is reasonable. My personal approach is informing them of the location of the surrender button in case they were not aware.
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 20:13:08


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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Surrendering on Single Player isn't needed because


Dan, did you seriously just referencing surrendering in single player... against the AI?
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 20:15:38

GameDice
Level 24
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"It does not mean "I think I've won the game" [...] and it's very rude to use it in that way."

That is an accepted use of the term in pro gaming circles.

It's not bad etiquette to ask someone to surrender when the outcome is obvious. For example, I just had to wait 4 days for a 2v2 game to end, because one team refused to surrender despite our team having broken both of them down to less than 10 income (and having around 30 income each, ourselves). Every turn, they simply ran away into a new neutral territory (until we trapped them).

We said GG on turn 5 or so, when both starting bonuses of one player had been broken and we had a large stack on the border of the starting bonus of the other. The game was clearly over, unless we made a horrible mistake somehow or one of us got booted.

I've also asked for surrender in games around turn 10, and I could reasonably predict what my opponents had based on overlapping picks. I explained my reasoning - I guessed they were, their estimated income, and how that compared to me/my team.

I don't get mad if people want to play things out until they see proof of my income and map position vs theirs - but once they can see the proof, they should accept the fact of their defeat. People also shouldn't get upset when asked to surrender. It's not disrespectful; it's time-saving for both of us.

Edited 5/6/2015 20:23:14
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 20:41:56

worldtraveller 
Level 60
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It's not bad etiquette to ask someone to surrender when the outcome is obvious.

It is. What seems obvious to one team may not be obvious to the other. Even if it's obvious to both, it's still bad etiquette. If it was obvious to the weaker team and they didn't surrender, why would they suddenly surrender when you ask them to?

For example, I just had to wait 4 days for a 2v2 game to end, because one team refused to surrender despite our team having broken both of them down to less than 10 income (and having around 30 income each, ourselves). Every turn, they simply ran away into a new neutral territory (until we trapped them).

Presumably you asked them to surrender, and they declined to do so.

It's not disrespectful; it's time-saving for both of us.

It is disrespectful. It could save time, if the person on the receiving end of the demand immediately complies. In that case, it might save a few minutes. If, on the other hand, the demandee finds this so irritating and disrespectful that they start playing extremely slowly, then it clearly hasn't saved anyone any time. See your example above.
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 20:46:07

iamtaller
Level 52
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Dan, did you seriously just referencing surrendering in single player... against the AI?


AI can get very offended if you don't surrender when its obvious that they are going to win, far on in the end. It is important to mention single player in this conversation because of it.
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 20:51:47


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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Here's the thing traveller... etiquette and respect are purely subjective. Just because you believe something to be disrespectful or poor etiquette it doesn't mean that everyone else must have the same opinion.

What you find to be respectful others may find to be disrespectful, and the difference of opinions here is clear proof of that.

Bottom line, stop trying to enforce your own views upon others. Don't like it when someone demands a surrender? Then blacklist them and move on, simple as that.
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 21:06:17

worldtraveller 
Level 60
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Don't be childish. I'm not forcing my views on anyone.
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 21:17:26


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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Hey, don't call me childish! That's disrespectful!
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 22:00:53

Hennns
Level 58
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I agree with worldtraveller. For two reasons mainly;; someone who's delaying the game is very unlikely to stop simply bc he's asked, and as long as there's a way to win (or you can have an impact on the final result) it's perfectly fine to keep playing (you can always win btw.).

The only case where I'd find it okay to ask someone to surrender is if it's a new player, as some of them do not know of the surrender function.

Yes delaying the game after it's clearly lost is disrespectful, however asking somebody to surrender is too. I'd simply say +1 Chris.
Manners and etiquette: 5/6/2015 23:50:15


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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Hennns in my experience, informing my opponent on the location of the surrender button has been effective roughly a third of the time
Manners and etiquette: 5/7/2015 00:24:53

RvW 
Level 46
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Etiquette is like computer networking; the most important principle is Postel's Law:
Be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others.

In other words, be as strict as you can in your own behaviour (also known as "lead by example"), but don't take offence when other people "cut a few corners".

In this specific case, I consider it perfectly acceptable (once you're convinced your opponent has enough information to know he has lost), to politely inquiring whether he's aware of the possibility to surrender. If they are and choose not to, nothing can be done about it, keep on playing.
On the other hand, if somebody bluntly states "you should surrender", just reply along the lines of "I don't think this is a done deal, let's play a few more turns" (if that leads to outraged cursing, at least you can rest assured you yourself didn't trigger the "wow, that escalated quickly"-effect :p ).
Manners and etiquette: 5/7/2015 01:01:07


Scotty 
Level 56
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I don't think it's disrespectful to fight until the end. I love finishing off players that fight to the death! They're freakin' awesome!
Manners and etiquette: 5/7/2015 02:54:31

GameDice
Level 24
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ITT: worldtraveler doesn't like being informed that he's lost, so he calls asking for surrender "disrespectful"
Manners and etiquette: 5/7/2015 03:40:56

Kentucky
Level 45
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I disagree entirely with the premise of this post. Trash talking is the BEST part about warlight and about sports. Seeing as how yall are concerned about peoples feelings I can tell that you didn't play sports ever, and if you did you sucked at them. As someone that played multiple sports in HS and baseball in college I disagree that it is factually true trash talk is against the game. Trash talk is part of the game and what makes it fun. Consider baseball for example, the funnest part of the game is the bat flip after a monster homerun. Celebrate your awesomeness don't be sad about it. Basketball all the players pound their chests and try to pump up the crowd after a big dunk or shot.

The part I hate the most about warlight is how losers will try to complain about people who talk trash or get in their head. Half the battle is mental and if you are mentally weak you should leave warlight. Honestly if you can't handle someone swearing at you or talking trash about how they kicked your ass you should play on this website instead of warlight: https://www.chalkpreschoolonline.com/.

I want to see change in the opposite direction. I want to see players talk more trash during games. I love getting into a good heated argument with another player. I never mean anything I say and I don't think they do either its just a more fun way to play the game for everyone involved. When people report other people for trash talk I get very sad. Its a waste of reporting. Warlight should raise the standards for what requires reporting status. This conversation reminds me why I dislike about half the games I play on warlight. The reason is simple, I come to warlight to play a game and play with strategy. If I wanted to deal with bitches I would play with my dogs, but im not playing with my dogs im playing a board game with adults. People should chill out and embrace trash talking.

Also to all those people who never surrender. Yall are the worst. Get a real life and job.
Manners and etiquette: 5/7/2015 03:49:23

Asian Sensation
Level 43
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I totally agree with Kentucky. Warlight should be a space for us to ditch the PAB facade we're forced to wear in order to appease society. It should be a place with no constraints, no notions of proper 'etiquette', and no rules of engagement while we lose ourselves in the glorious battle of pixelated combat. The best part is not only conquering my opponents digitally, but to take it to its logical extent and to verbally obliterate them from the Warlight universe. Winners are winners and should revel in their victories. Losers are losers and should know it.

Let's stop walking the dogs boys... and maybe we can become men.

Edited 5/7/2015 03:49:32
Manners and etiquette: 5/7/2015 04:06:49


Uber Führer IV
Level 55
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I never trash talk, but that's just because I'm too uncreative :P I play 1v1 earth only, and it's extremely easy to tell when you've lost. I just tell them outright to surrender because there's no point in delaying that game. It just becomes a huge drag for me(unless they request it, but that's never happened.).
Manners and etiquette: 5/7/2015 05:15:20


Scotty 
Level 56
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Kentucky sucks.
...just trash talkin'...

I see both sides. I think there is appropriate "ribbing" and inappropriate. Even in baseball or basketball as Kentucky brought up, if some jerk from the other team is trash talking, it's just because they're a jerk, not because the game is now better because they opened their mouth. Most the time, when two guys start the talk, everyone else just wants them to shut up. It doesn't improve anything.

However, when you know someone, and the talk is in "good humor" well then that's different. That simply raises the competitive atmosphere without the annoyance of someone just running their mouth.

In Warlight, if I'm playing with someone I've played a lot and I reject their sissy attack, I might ask them why they sent in the junior squad, in good humor, if I know we have a connection. If I were to say that to a new guy, I would just be a jerk. There's a difference.

To Kentucky's point, however, there are some people who will never be able to take a ribbing in good humor. I just don't even talk to them. I like the clans... you can kind of hang out with people that you connect with.

Oh...
Also, I retract my comment that Kentucky sucks. I don't know him. That wasn't in good humor. But if I get to know him, and we have a connection, then I'm totally going to come back here later and retract my retraction... yeah.

Edited 5/7/2015 05:18:59
Manners and etiquette: 5/7/2015 05:38:40


Miss Blee
Level 35
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There comes a point in the game where it's just ridiculous to continue, but I don't suggest surrender unless my opponent comments that they think it's over for them or something similar. I've only had one person comment gg, implying that I should surrender, so I don't think it's a big issue.

I've also only had one person trash talk me, and he was on my team.
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