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2v2 ladder template - please fix: 3/30/2015 15:20:36


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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This has been talked about a while, but I have not seen any comment from Fizzer...

Can we please do something with the 2v2 ladder template? I'd say if we don't tweak it somehow, just switch it back to the old one on Med Earth.

Have you looked at the teams on there? There are zero players from [20], WG, WM, GG, apex on any ranked team. 1 player from Masters. Nobody wants to play that ladder.

Edited 3/30/2015 15:21:03
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 3/30/2015 16:39:26


Sephiroth 
Level 60
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The map of the current 2v2 ladder template is meh and the 16% wr discourages from playing it
+1
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 3/30/2015 17:06:35


#Master [QB] 
Level 62
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No! this is the best ladder ever! just try it, it's much more strategical as it seems to be!
Please Fizzer, don't change it :)

@ Chris, there is szewenigen ( playing with different teammates ), there are some teams from Masters, like Mod and Turtel or TWM and Booty, there is Oh Noes from your clan....... and many more strong players currently practicing in it ^^
it's just not the truth to say there are none "top" teams playing

and the point there are just 2 picks makes it much more important to guess your opponents picks because counters often decide the game early

Edited 3/30/2015 17:12:21
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 3/30/2015 17:09:53


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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I think the 2 pick locations is the worst aspect of it. The map is too large for 2 picks. Maybe it needs more wastelands too.

I saw SZE and Fizzer play the ladder as a team, I hoped that would turn into a new template on it.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 3/30/2015 19:33:11


Timinator • apex 
Level 64
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+1 Chris
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 3/30/2015 20:05:35


[WM] Gnuffone 
Level 60
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more picks (4 is perfect) an 0% SR
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 3/30/2015 20:32:27


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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@ Chris, there is szewenigen ( playing with different teammates ), there are some teams from Masters, like Mod and Turtel or TWM and Booty, there is Oh Noes from your clan....... and many more strong players currently practicing in it ^^
it's just not the truth to say there are none "top" teams playing


I don't think you read what I said QB. I said "ranked" teams. I'm not going to scroll through pages of games to see who played a game here or there. I am only interested in who has played a full 10 games and is actively on there. That shows me that a team is doing more than feeling it out.

Ineffable and Bananashake were on there a while. He is playing with Oh Noes right now, but I am guess that has more to do with Oh Noes being new to our clan and getting to know each other well than a healthy like for the ladder.

Anyway, the point is I feel the ladder is pretty weak overall. Prior to the map change you always had 1-2 teams in the top 15 from apex, WM, WG, GG, Master, [20]...(often mixed teams). Now, you are hard pressed to see any of them on there often. Do you remember all the threads like "apex dominating 2v2 ladder", etc? You see clans pretty active on the seasonal ladder (WM and apex not as much), but not on 2v2 ladder. Where are Summer and timon dominating it with their alts? They are not because the template is less strategic.

Edited 3/30/2015 20:33:31
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 3/31/2015 10:54:26


Math Wolf 
Level 63
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I'm slightly insulted Yeon + MW is never mentioned. After all, Yeon is a former member of 20 and we've both been asked by at least two of the clans you mentioned.

Additionaly, the AlterEgoist & Latnox team is "actively" playing but not ranked because of a lot of vacations (and maybe not enough games anymore by now).

Another partial reason may be that many of the people in those clans have achieved ladder success in the past and don't feel like playing again.
As an example: in the 1v1 ladder, it's also very typical that people leave the ladder when they drop from the top position. More than half of them never return and it's rare that people choose to continue playing consistently (with the same account) while being ranked lower (I can only recall 4 people who did immediately: Timi, Ace, HHH and me, although there's probably a few more.) The 2v2 ladder has had this trend even more and in a more extreme way as it requires only 1 person for a team to split up.

So, taking this all together, I do conclude that your observations are somewhat biased and you see what you want to see. I'm pretty sure that a few weeks ago, at least a quarter of the top 10 consisted of people from the clans you mentioned. After all, there are at least 7 players that I can think of that were ranked in the top 10 not long ago. (Ineffable, Latnox, AlterEgoist, swezeningen, Dreamworker, Master, Kantos)

I do like the current map, but I do agree that more starts would be preferable. Four is possible, but 3 would already be an improvement and maybe my preference.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 3/31/2015 11:35:49

Pulsey
Level 56
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Nobody wants to play that ladder.


No. More people are playing the ladder than ever before. Its just that, right now, there aren't many teams from the so called 'elite' clans you've mentioned.

I do seem to recall that you've played the template before with an alt account, and to little degree of success. In fact many games you've lost to were against players that weren't in the 'elite' clans you mentioned.

Should we change the settings? Maybe. Just don't say that the settings should be changed because nobody's playing it. Because thats false. More people are playing the 2v2 ladder than ever before.

Personally, I just think you are upset that for once, less hardcore, non-clan players seem to be mastering the template better than you and your 'elite' clan mates, and thats upsetting your sense of clan hierarchy. Tough.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 3/31/2015 14:06:40


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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I'm slightly insulted Yeon + MW is never mentioned. After all, Yeon is a former member of 20 and we've both been asked by at least two of the clans you mentioned.


Actually, you are a prime example of what is wrong with the ladder (it losing strategic value). It looks like you just moved up to 5th, but you've been below some teams that I have no clue how they are above you. If this were a truly strategic template, I would expect you to be top 3 all the time. Same with SZE's team...did that even sniff the top 10 when they tried this template?

I mean how can a team be in the top 5 and not even make the correct number of picks?:
https://www.warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=7919988

Because there are not enough picks on the board so noobs can pick 3 spots and get away with it.

Pulsey, you are way off base. I don't care if other teams are getting to the top. I have no problem with that. Look at what happened on the 1v1 ladder. Many players like MOD got very good at that template and worked their way to the top. I think that is fantastic. That isn't what is happening here. Are you trying to tell me the #4 team on the ladder has mastered it (picking 3 spots)? Come on, there are junk teams above good teams, and there is no way that would occur on such a regular basis with a truly strategic template.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/2/2015 06:31:44


Jefferspin 
Level 61
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I feel like I should be insulted but actually I don't give a fuck. I agree that SR and maybe 3-4 picks would be better but I have no issue with the map in general. There is still very much strategic value in this template but like anything new, it takes time to get used to it. I needed QB to help out since I hated this template initially. Adjustments can be made and Ill leave it at that.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/3/2015 05:01:36


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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I did not say anything about you guys being #1. I looked at people I dont know and saw total noobs in top 10
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/3/2015 16:09:54


Kenny • apex 
Level 59
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Poor execution Chris. XD. You came off as pretty damn arrogant. 4 picks and 0% WR/0% SR and it's a really fun template. Played it a lot and love it. I used to always be playing 2v2 ladder, but I won't play this template as it sits.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/3/2015 17:49:51


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Why am I arrogant? I never said I was elite, far from it. And I never said nobody good was playing it either (I said almost nobody from the clan league A group is even ranked). But there are not many really good players on there compared to how it used to be.

Edited 4/3/2015 17:50:19
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/3/2015 18:18:00

TBest 
Level 60
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You appear arrogant because you allow yourself to decides who are good players (and who are not). This gives the impression of you thinking you are always right (e.g arrogant). You would have been better of focusing all your arguments on the template and not on who is (or isn't) playing it.

Come on, there are junk teams above good teams, and there is no way that would occur on such a regular basis with a truly strategic template.


If there are "junk teams" above a good team the "junk team" is not junk.

I did not say anything about you guys being #1. I looked at people I dont know and saw total noobs in top 10

Do you expect to know every good players on WL? Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they don't know how to play.

But there are not many really good players on there compared to how it used to be.

It would be very hard to prove that this is a result of the template. Also the players ther now may very well be really good. And again, how good a template is don't depend on who is playing it.

I recommenced you read Pulsey's comment again. Also as Mathwolf said, you appear biased in this discussion. To conclude, next time you make a comment on a template make sure all parts of your statement is about the template and NOT about any players/teams.


P.S
Have you looked at the teams on there? There are zero players from [20], WG, WM, GG, apex on any ranked team. 1 player from Masters. Nobody wants to play that ladder.


If you had dropped this statement from your first post the discussion could have been on-topic. Instead we are now discussing arrogance and players. The template is simply not the focus anymore. If you want to make it right, Try to make a new thread, with the same title and same first post, except for the last part that I quoted. I would expect to see a completely different discussion then.

Edited 4/3/2015 18:29:59
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/3/2015 18:29:38


Jefferspin 
Level 61
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I do agree on the team that Chris mentioned though. They pick like 4 spots every game and most of their top wins are off of boots so the rating is skewed.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/3/2015 18:32:46


master of desaster 
Level 65
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the template is luck based and you all know it. when we voted for that new map for the 2vs2 ladder, we (or at least I) expected fizzer to adjust the template. the actual solution is like a slap in the face for everyone who voted back then.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/3/2015 18:36:53

TBest 
Level 60
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It is not the "bad" teams fault that they win through. Yes he may be completely right about both the teams and the template. But again the point of this thread was not to discuss teams/players but a template. And when ChrisCMU brings in who is and isn't playing the ladder the points about the template becomes secondary.

How good a template is have nothing to do with who plays it. This is why I believe he should make a new thread with the same topic, but keep the players out.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/3/2015 18:56:02


[WM] Gnuffone 
Level 60
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+1 mod
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/3/2015 19:02:29


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Really tbest? The template has nothing to do with who plays a ladder? Then why do people drop every season when they dont like it?

Try changing the 1v1 ladder to %75 luck and see how the interest changes. You will probably have more participants (noobs will have a better chance of upsets and thus play more), but it will be very luck based and rankings will be erratic.

I dont see how you can say interest is not impacted by the template.

Edited 4/3/2015 19:03:21
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/3/2015 19:09:44


Jefferspin 
Level 61
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I agree with those points. The template does allow for much more luck than the previous one and that is obvious. It does allow worse teams to upset better teams and I do think there should be a change. 0% and more picks would be great.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/3/2015 19:28:05


Legacy 
Level 56
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Maybe if enough of us spammed Fizzer with private messages, he'd do something about it.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/3/2015 19:29:56

TBest 
Level 60
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@ChrisCMU

Sure the template is luck based, and that is something that requires a different skill set then what is normally used among "elite" players. More casuals players often like to have higher luck settings, and as such they may very well be more skilled on luck templates.

As a chess player I certently find the value of a balanced game were there is no "luck". However that is not why I play WL, I play it because it has luck.

Is the success of a ladder depending on how good the players are or how many players that play in the ladder? One would think that would be number of players, no? So yes, if changing the 1v1 ladder to 75% luck increased number of players, that would that would be a good change.

EDIT: forgot to respond to this;
Really tbest? The template has nothing to do with who plays a ladder? Then why do people drop every season when they dont like it?


Assuming you mean "elite" players when you say "who plays a ladder"

My point was, If you want to complain about a template don't drag in weather that or that player chooses to play it. If the template has few number of unique players it is a failure and if that number is high it is a success. (in terms of a Ladder) Instead of saying that you believe changing x will lead to the "elite" players returning to the ladder the goal should be to increase the number of players. Therefore you would be better of arguing that changing x leads to more players.

Minior note: "Really tbest?" is the perfect way to sound arrogant. 1. You don't bother writing my nick properly. 2. Starting of with "Really" is not needed simply, @TBest would satisfied. (It sounds like you didn't even consider my arguments/ found them to far out to be serious)

Edited 4/3/2015 19:53:08
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/4/2015 18:36:43


Master Turtle 
Level 61
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@TBest
This game was built on the backbones of "elite" players. If there is a ladder and NO competition, whats the point?

Ladder should be gauges for skill..... and skill involves NO LUCK.... so if you want to correctly be able to define someone as elite or noob then you need a better template. And just for clarification: Everyone is a noob unless proven otherwise.....

Just how it is.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/4/2015 18:51:00

TBest 
Level 60
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This game was built on the backbones of "elite" players.

May very well be true, but I don't think this is the case today. (Although they probably play more coin games etc. Either way I don't see how that is relevant for the 2v2 ladder.)
If there is a ladder and NO competition, whats the point?

If you want a super competitive environment go to 1v1 ladder or/and play coin games, but I don't see that as the point. The point of playing games is too have fun. (Now what an individual finds as fun is different from person to person ofc, but the 2v2 ladder certently seems to be fun. Based on the number of ranked teams.)

" and skill involves NO LUCK"
Fundamentally disagree with this. (poker for instance is certainly a skill game, and so is a game with 75% luck)

Edited 4/4/2015 18:52:26
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/6/2015 05:50:32


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Why should the 1v1 ladder be competative and 2v2 not? Shouldn't all ladders be competative, that is the point of a ladder. I am not saying there should be no luck, even though I prefer it (as I have said before I get why people like 3v2s to fail at times). But it should not be as lucked based as it is. And yes, it takes some skill to account for that luck, I get that. I am not discounting everyone doing well On the template. I just dont see how you can think the system cannot be improved.

More people playing it does not make it better. How many people played lotto games when points first came out? That did not mean those games were suddenly better.

Edited 4/6/2015 05:52:38
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/6/2015 23:38:33

TBest 
Level 60
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The 2v2 ladder is certainly skill based. (Team #1 is currently about 300 points ahead of #2, this I would claim is a sign of skill.) Although team #1 is far ahead, the rest of the ladder are close in rating. (How else would you measure "competitiveness"?) Yes, I am sure that the whole community of WL would like more "elite" players to play in it (2v2 lad.), but I don't think this is due to a poor template.

I never said that I " think the system cannot be improved." What I do say is that the 2v2 ladder is currently not in need of "fixing". (ref. thread title.) And there is no need to adjust the luck in it. Generally one would want a ladder template to change very rarely, and only a major reason should initiate such a change.

"More people playing it does not make it better. How many people played lotto games when points first came out? That did not mean those games were suddenly better. "

I was obviously talking in the context of a ladder. More players makes a ladder more attractive, as the higher positions becomes more desired.

EDIT: Seems 2nd poster in this thread just changed opinion; https://www.warlight.net/Forum/84497-looking-2v2-ladder-partner

EDIT 2: He didn't, as he posted below.

Edited 4/7/2015 00:53:20
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/7/2015 00:09:13


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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The 2v2 ladder is certainly skill based. (Team #1 is currently about 300 points ahead of #2, this I would claim is a sign of skill.) Although team #1 is far ahead, the rest of the ladder are close in rating. (How else would you measure "competitiveness"?) Yes, I am sure that the whole community of WL would like more "elite" players to play in it (2v2 lad.), but I don't think this is due to a poor template.


The ratings have nothing to do with it. The #5 team on the ladder (they were #3 at one time) has not picked the correct number of picks in ANY game:

https://www.warlight.net/LadderTeam?LadderTeamID=8051

How on earth can you say the ladder accurately measures skill when that happens? I count at least a dozen teams ranked below them that I would expect to win %95 of their games against this team on the old ladder template.

EDIT: Seems 2nd poster in this thread just changed opinion; https://www.warlight.net/Forum/84497-looking-2v2-ladder-partner


What does playing the ladder have to do with anything? I am also playing the ladder with Tenshi, and I know another half dozen great players that are on the ladder despite knowing it needs more picks. It helps to know exactly how it needs to be changed if you play a lot on it.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/7/2015 00:18:33


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Here are other posts on the subject:

https://www.warlight.net/Forum/56638-2v2-ladder-settings

https://www.warlight.net/Forum/71957-weak-2v2-ladder

https://www.warlight.net/Forum/55494-upcomin-ladder-change

I doubt you can find a single person in there that said they wanted 2 starts on Final Earth.
2v2 ladder template - please fix: 4/7/2015 00:33:18


Sephiroth 
Level 60
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TBest:

Chris is bringing up a discussion in order to try make the 2v2 ladder template more enjoyable and more competitive - in response you call him arrogant and polemicize with bullshit arguments.

And for your information, even if I want to play on the 2v2 ladder, I still think that the map is too big for 2 starting spots/player and 16%WR is lame
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