Now now, you join games or ladders knowing the timeframe you need to commit in. If you can't do that, there's a boot timer designed to show you that. Someone trying to exploit the boot timer may sound like a twat, but it was you that signed up for a game with those time constraints.

Sure. That is precisely why I no longer commit to the ladders though, and don't join them. That is my point.

Now now, you join games or ladders knowing the timeframe you need to commit in. If you can't do that, there's a boot timer designed to show you that. Someone trying to exploit the boot timer may sound like a twat, but it was you that signed up for a game with those time constraints.

A: Winning through time management might be smart, but is neither nice nor skilled.

B: While true that people agree on X times when joining, the vast majority who voiced their opinion were against these boot times in the first place and it was just forced through regardless.
Ergo you see a lot of complaining and / or people not playing in the first place.

Just got another boot win (:

Whether we call it an "exploit" or just being "evil" or "too bad you signed up, this is totally fair", is beside the point, we're not asking "did people sign up something they didn't understand" or "are people being unfairly booted", we're asking "is this boot timer a good idea"

Where "good idea" minimally means more people like it than don't, more people are benefitting from it (quicker/more enjoyable games) than aren't (not just getting booted, but also feel rushed, aren't enjoying the game b/c they have to focus on time more than the actual moves, etc)

I'm not trying to sway the opinion one way or the other, just asking for thoughts, in lieu of Fizz actually doing the poll

A: Winning through time management might be smart, but is neither nice nor skilled.

Yeah, we agree on that. It's not a nice move to try and get someone booted by figuring out their schedule. Takes a bit of skill, but not the kind of skill that should earn you a win.

B: While true that people agree on X times when joining, the vast majority who voiced their opinion were against these boot times in the first place and it was just forced through regardless.

Agreed. I dislike these boot times too. For now you'll have to play the hand you're dealt. I hope we can get the boot times back to their original three days. The only thing I'm saying is that if you don't want to play under these circumstances, then don't. And try to get the system to change :)

Edited 5/29/2023 19:54:33

if you don't want to play under these circumstances, then don't. And try to get the system to change :)

That's the idea I'm following now, but first give the new system a fair shot so if/when the poll happens and we have a chance to change the system, I will have an informed opinion on it based on experience from using it

So far I'd sum up my experience with it as (a) manageable with effort, (b) but less enjoyable than previously, and (c) I'll probably leave the ladders once I feel I've "experienced" them enough b/c it's just more work than pleasure now

I'm only playing the 2v2 ladder, and with the banked time have had no issues yet. None of my opponents have booted either, but the sample is small.

I can't imagine this being playable for seasonal, although I think 1v1 would be manageable. 3v3 would need very active teammates.

There's also no question quality of play is lower. I can't let a pick or move set marinate overnight and hard counts aren't happening (not that I was doing much hard counting since coming out of retirement anyways).

Edited 5/29/2023 21:29:02

1 day + 2 days banked per week is kinda OK.

1 day + 2 days banked is not.

Quality of games on ladders is less. If ppl didn’t avoid Warzone events because of quality of games before, they will now. This is why clan league is the biggest event on clan league even with out fancy play now buttons, rewards, and other things. Ppl just want quality lol

If the underling reason for such short boot times is due to stalling, then only the people that stall should be punished. Shortening boot times doesnt fix why players stall in the first place. Reducing boot times only makes it harder for players to find the time to take their turns.

Edited 5/29/2023 22:13:56

^ stalling should not really be an issue anymore, at least not in terms of stalling to distort ratings in your favor, from what I understand, given the switching of the rating system

of course some people still might think of "stalling" as just taking forever to take your turn, but as Farah said you agree to the boot time when you join the game so I don't think this should have ever been regarded as a problem in itself at all. Yet I feel that's why some people mean when they talk about "stalling" being less prevalent or stuff along these lines

An example of the issue is as this. Right now I'm going to bed and I have a few ladder games with 10-16 hrs left on the clock, but instead of moving now, I'm going to input my moves but no commit and wait until I wake up

Because I'm going into the office tomorrow, then dinner & a baseball game directly afterward, so after going to bed tonight, I'll be away from my PC for about 20-22 hrs. Long enough that I'll boot if I don't play until I get home tomorrow. But if I make my moves now, it means I have to play almost as soon as I get home. Maybe I want to eat dinner first, maybe I want to grab a shower, watch some TV, whatever, but I might not have time for those things

But if I commit my move before leaving for work tomorrow, I have no worries of booting tomorrow.

And yes, as Fizz said, I have a mobile, yes I have the app installed, and some people play from work. I don't. It's super unprofessional. Yes I could take a break and go hide away somewhere to make my moves. But I won't. I could play while watching baseball. But I won't. It's not how I roll, I play on PC at home, and am not going to change just b/c the boot times are stricter

So I will stall my moves tonight so that I don't set myself up for failure for tomorrow's moves

@roi that's basically my point lol
@waffle yeah thats what's happening to the ladder
@krinid short answer: boot timer is bad, not many people like it
@kallisti even that 2 day bank per week is a bit short for a significant amount of people
@danwl
this. exactly.
@waffle
fizzer overdid it. he removed the incentive AND the method to stall when one would be enough. and it has negative effects.

@krinid

some people play from work. I don't. It's super unprofessional

▶ I personally don't mind playing at work. I enjoy playing it while smoking outside or in the restroom. However, I take ladders seriously and I don't like to think about complex strategies or predicting opponents every move until the current turn while my head is full of work related stuff. So I agree with you, I don't think ladders should be played at work or while watching other stuff

The whole point of ladders is its high skill games. And that requires a lot of time. And 1 day boot+2day bank does not provide the time. QED.

It doesn't require a lot of time.

Then again in your case it'd require a brain transplant, so I guess that would take time.

Seriously though, the "top players", the ones with "the most skill" are having no issue with these boot times. They play most of their games RT.

Beep Beep has completed 40 games in the past 20 days.

Even at 5 games at a time, making that effectively be 100 days, that'd be finishing each game in an average of 2.5 days. ie. Entire games completed in the span of 1 "3 day boot timer".

Rufus has completed 51 games in the same time period. This puts him at 1.96 days per game. Octane is even faster at 1.78 games per day. These are the three best players to play the 1v1 ladder since the update. They don't take days to stew over their moves.

For team ladders I think the boot time is way too low, but all the people claiming that the boot timers are too low for skilled play on the 1v1 ladder are talking out their ass.

The reason the team ladders are an issue is because you don't just need to find time to make moves, you need to find time to discuss moves with your teammate.

Edited 5/30/2023 14:27:45

I hope that last remark wasn't serious, but don't do that.

The reason the team ladders are an issue is because you don't just need to find time to make moves, you need to find time to discuss moves with your teammate.

Agreed, I can't play with an Indian if I'm American since we have opposite timezones and it requires us more than 2 days to discuss on avg. I can kinda play with a European, but I'd say that's right at the limit of 2 days to discuss on avg. I can play with an American, but if either of us gets busy then it gets tough.

which leads to people like me in time zones that aren't common not being able to play, even if I wanted to.
not good.

Seriously though, the "top players", the ones with "the most skill" are having no issue with these boot times. They play most of their games RT.

I think the players most affected are a) those who rely a lot on hard counting and calculation (vs feel players), b) reside in a skill tier where they can play very well but it isn't automated for them, and thus extra time allows them to elevate their game.

I can guarantee even Rufus, Beep, and Octane could use extra time to come up with better plans/make better picks and play at a higher level. They just don't need to because their RT skill is good enough to stomp the vast majority of this game.

And of course everyone deals with the same time controls, so it's not like they're playing RT against 3 day plans.

Edited 5/30/2023 14:57:17

> I can guarantee even Rufus, Beep, and Octane could use extra time to come up with better plans/make better picks and play at a higher level.

They could play at a higher level than they are now, but it wouldn't require extra time. It'd require extra effort, and perhaps more time than they are putting into their games, but not more time than the current boot timer allows them.