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recipe visibility bug: 7/2/2021 20:19:03


Python's Koala
Level 59
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I have the "Recipe Visibility" advancement, but I cannot see which recipes are which - it just shows the territory as having a recipe on it, with the number of territories needed to conquer it, as "fogged". It even shows the location of the first smelter and crafter along with Copper Bar and Copper Wire, but other recipes are still marked as "fogged". This is very unfortunate since the main utility of recipe visibility is to acquire recipes I need for tech or economy - eg if a tech requires Structs, I would want to know which recipe is Structs.

Screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/v9fGZoA

Edited 7/2/2021 20:26:20
recipe visibility bug: 7/2/2021 20:25:33

Parsifal
Level 62
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yep. That's why I avoid investing in visibilities
recipe visibility bug: 7/2/2021 20:28:28


JK_3 
Level 61
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I'm sorry to disappoint you, but i'm afraid this is a "feature", and not a bug.
recipe visibility bug: 7/2/2021 20:30:49


Python's Koala
Level 59
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The territories shown with visibility upgrades also don't count for the "Armies in visible unconquered territories" stat, despite it being visible how many armies they have on them. (Though this doesn't actually matter much for gameplay - that stat is mostly useful at the end of levels for figuring out if I will have enough mercenaries to clear the level, or if I need to do more hospital upgrades first.)
recipe visibility bug: 7/2/2021 20:35:20


JK_3 
Level 61
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The territories shown with visibility upgrades also don't count for the "Armies in visible unconquered territories" stat, despite it being visible how many armies they have on them.


Well, that is a proper bug.

It's still sad it doesnt show you what recipe it is tho, since that would make this feature actually useful...
recipe visibility bug: 7/2/2021 23:04:53


krinid 
Level 60
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I think the Visibility AP Adv's are intentionally nerfed like that to avoid being too powerful (read: useful), and so you still need a fog buster to truly reveal it.

I thought that once I got all the AP Adv's useful for level-clearing, that those might be useful to get, but tbh I think the ore production increase items are more useful than those. They have to truly be fully fog busted to change a lot of people's minds.

It's a specialized recipe/cache/mine/army camp/merc camp visibility AP Adv ... which means it should be more specific and useful in how it reveals the specific items it targets, not less specific. It really should show you the types & amounts of ore it offers, the quantity & cost of mercs, the armies/sec, the recipe name & ingredients, the cache type & amounts. They should really be a recipe/cache/mine/army camp/merc camp fog busting AP Adv, not just "visibility" which is imho pretty weak and not worth the AP investment.

NOTE: I left smelter/crafter out of the list above, b/c those are fine to just show the locations. They have no special qualities, there are no weak/strong/quick/fast/good/bad smelters or crafters, they're all the same, so location is all you need to know. The crafter with the copper wire recipe would potentially be the only exception, but technically it's both a crafter and a recipe, so not really an issue.

Edited 7/2/2021 23:20:07
recipe visibility bug: 7/2/2021 23:27:01


l4v.r0v 
Level 59
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It's still sad it doesnt show you what recipe it is tho, since that would make this feature actually useful...
Intentionally making a game frustrating and egging the player on into paying for more unlockables is how p2w/p2p Idle games work. It's not sad; it's how the genre works. Games like Idle create user pain by design, and the only way to avoid that sort of stuff in this genre is to not seriously monetize it (e.g., Cookie Clicker is also frustrating by design, but less so because it accommodates cheating so users always have a workaround by just using the JS Console). Otherwise, you have the perverse incentive to deliberately create a frustrating experience for your own players.
- downvoted post by alexclusive
recipe visibility bug: 7/12/2021 02:52:29

megaol
Level 50
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idle games are supposed to be frustrating, but part of the fun is that you're supposed to believe in a future where things are more convenient than they are now. There are a lot of *different* visibility/automation advances in the game, but the problem is you can never fix the fact that the basic ones are really bad -- autoconquer doesn't use joint strike, among other problems with it, recipe visibility doesn't tell you the recipe, etc. The fun is to believe that eventually you *can* get eventually competent convenience upgrades. I do think it would be an exciting feature if customizable autos and better visibility upgrades existed in the game, even if it cost a lot of AP or were in phase 4 and therefore takes forever to get unlock.

Edited 7/12/2021 03:07:49
recipe visibility bug: 7/21/2021 19:50:49


JK_3 
Level 61
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There are a lot of *different* visibility/automation advances in the game, but the problem is you can never fix the fact that the basic ones are really bad


Yep, I'm only using the auto-advancements for battles. The systems are too dumb for normal levels, and the challenge levels are impossible so i dont even bother playing those.
recipe visibility bug: 7/22/2021 01:10:30

dwaynerudd 
Level 59
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I still vote this is a bug, not a feature. With mine visibility, it tells you the name of the mine.
recipe visibility bug: 7/22/2021 15:47:02


JK_3 
Level 61
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I dont think its a bug but a feature, but the feature should be changed cause not knowing what you will get makes it pretty much useless...
recipe visibility bug: 7/23/2021 11:08:28


Z 
Level 62
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Recipe Visibility does seem weaker than the others.

Smelter/Crafters - you know what you are getting
Mines - you know what you are getting (what mines produce are dependent on their name)
Caches - you would know what you are getting Army/Money/Resource
Merc Camps - It doesn’t matter, they are all the same
Recipes - Mystery box

I know it’s like that by design, but it is still one step up from useless.
recipe visibility bug: 7/23/2021 18:46:21

dwaynerudd 
Level 59
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Not to mention any visibility shows you how many armies are needed to capture that territory. That is some valuable information to give away as an incidental freebie, when what I'm really trying to do is figure out where that blasted bolt recipe is at.
recipe visibility bug: 7/23/2021 18:58:01


asdfgh
Level 20
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Well if you click on the territory it says fogged in the description and doesn't give the exact army total. The advancement say "Visibility" not unfog.

If there is a bug it's that it shows the army total on the map. Probably should just show where it's at and nothing else.

Edited 7/24/2021 04:51:29
recipe visibility bug: 7/24/2021 04:01:53


krinid 
Level 60
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I know it’s like that by design, but it is still one step up from useless.

Let's be clear though ... on a scale of:

10 super useful - unquestionably worth getting
5 reasonably useful - likely worth getting for most under the right circumstance
0 absolutely worthless - not worth getting by anyone in any circumstances

It is currently a 1 (one step up from useless) but still far from useful. The only ones that provide any value at all are the early ones b/c they're all useful to some degree for the early techs. But once you pass Welding Rod, the useless junk comes out of the woodwork and 90% of what you find are distractions.

On the other hand, you're going to cap all the early recipes fairly early on anyhow, so having their locations known is pretty non-game changing b/c you're going there soon regardless and won't change your strat.

So if it's not going to highlight where the tin can, welding rod, rivet, bolt, struct or explosive bolt recipes are, little to no value at all.

In the end, it's not important whether it's a Feature or a Bug ... this is just nomenclature, doesn't matter if the implementation matches its description or not, it's a matter of whether it's Useful or Not, Worth spending AP on or Not, and right now it's Not in both cases in the eyes of most players (even asdfgh who sounds like he's defending it is really only arguing the nomenclature, and not the value of the advancement).
recipe visibility bug: 7/24/2021 05:11:53


asdfgh
Level 20
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Well I would agree that most of the visibility advancements are a 1 on the useful scale with one exception: The first smelter/crafter advancement. Being able to get that second smelter and first crafter earlier makes the early parts of levels easier. I would give it a ~5ish on the scale as 75 AP isn't terrible high price. If Market Visibility wasn't 200 AP for the first buy I could see that being useful as buying tin bars for tin cans is so important to my play style.

Now if there was an Army Camp or Hospital Visibility it would be a different story. Please give us that Fizzer.
recipe visibility bug: 7/24/2021 22:23:13

dwaynerudd 
Level 59
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while we're arguing that features are bugs: ain't no way that joint strike was intended/expected to be such an integral part of the game. it either would have been a level 4 enhancement, or free with some kind of condition on it (like you have to win an arena in each level before it activates for that level).
recipe visibility bug: 7/24/2021 22:26:45


JK_3 
Level 61
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If Market Visibility wasn't 200 AP for the first buy I could see that being useful as buying tin bars for tin cans is so important to my play style.


I would pay 200 AP just to always see the location of the market with copper bars on every map, I'm only ever finding that thing after i needed to run 80% of my smelters on copper bars for the past 10 days to keep my crafters alive....
recipe visibility bug: 7/24/2021 22:28:38


JK_3 
Level 61
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while we're arguing that features are bugs: ain't no way that joint strike was intended/expected to be such an integral part of the game. it either would have been a level 4 enhancement, or free with some kind of condition on it (like you have to win an arena in each level before it activates for that level).


Why so? Most people can predict that getting back X% of your armies reduces your playtime for a level by X%, and knowing Fizzer he definitely play tested WZI before he even made it alfa or beta.

Not everything in WZI has to be impossible and painful, even if it sometimes feels like that.
recipe visibility bug: 7/25/2021 13:38:02


krinid 
Level 60
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Agree w/JK, I think Fizz foresaw the importance of JS. It's pretty easy to see that it will be easy to do JS attacks for most territories, and that the result will be nearly 25% reduction of armies required across the board.

I think what you're missing is that the level generation takes all this into account. The algorithm is something like this: first, decide on target # of days the level should take to clear; then dependent on # of territories assign # of recipes/camps/markets/smelters/crafters/total # of armies on map taking JS/etc into consideration.

So if JS wasn't in play, there would be less armies on the map. With JS being such an early and cheap upgrade, it means it's actually very easy to factor into the level generation (everyone will get it).
recipe visibility bug: 7/26/2021 10:30:51

dwaynerudd 
Level 59
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I guess I can see it. It just strikes me that it is so much more powerful than any other ap upgrade. It's like other ap upgrades are on a scale of 0-3, and joint strike is an 11.
recipe visibility bug: 8/4/2021 16:21:59


krinid 
Level 60
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Certainly not all Advancements are made equal. Some are simply better than others, and JS is the king of them all - not only b/c it's cheap, but b/c it constantly maintains its value from the moment you unlock it through 1st Ascension and long after even after 4th or 5th Ascension, it still holds value, which isn't the case for all Advancements. Merc & money based Advancements are directly after JS. Counting only army camp units & mercs, my ratio of armies earned is 4% army camps, 96% mercs. As you progress through levels, your speed gets QUICKER not SLOWER -- so army camps that require you to wait longer to get the benefits from (and let's be clear here - if you clear a level more quickly, you're earning less armies from your camps unless you somehow hyper-upgrade them asap, but then you still have to wait to earn the units from them) do not align to this strategy, but merc & quick money making strat aligns to clearing faster. Basically, it's quicker to craft, earn money & buy mercs, then it is to craft, earn money, upgrade camps, wait for armies to accumulate.

In my opinion, the best advancements are, in order of raw value, not in order they should/can be unlocked:

- Joint Strike
- Better Hospitals
- Increased Cache Armies
- Increase Crafters Speed
- Increase Item Sell Values
- Additional Mercs
- Discounted Mercs
- Increased AP
- Increased Cache Money
- Increased Army Camp Production
- Increased Ore Sell Values
- Discounted Mine Upgrades
- Faster Digging
- Increased Cache Resources

And I've purposely left these two out . . . b/c they are essentially a set pair, and by the time you can afford them, you likely no longer need them b/c you've already Ascended 3-4 times and probably don't care about playing ML anymore, and maybe not even WZI anymore at all.

- Simultaneous Levels
- Can Skip Levels

But of course you can't unlock them in that order b/c some are locked in phase 2, 3 or 4. Now if I reordered these into the order that they should be unlocked & unless stipulated also fully maxed out before continuing down the list, I'd probably say:

[phase 1]
- *Joint Strike
- Increased Army Camp Production - only to ~100%
- *Additional Mercs
- Increased Ore Sell Values
- Discounted Mine Upgrades
- *Increased Cache Money
[phase 2]
- *Increase Crafters Speed
- *Discounted Mercs
- *Increased AP
- *Increased Cache Resources
- Increased Army Camp Production - up to 200-300%

[phase 3]
- *Increase Item Sell Values
- Increased Money from Bonuses

[phase 4]
- *Increased Cache Armies
- *Better Hospitals
- *Faster Digging

NOTE:
- Items with asterisks are the ones that will give the highest value AFTER your 1st Ascension b/c they aren't related to time, but rather to activity, such as capturing a territory, crafting items, etc. Completing a level more quickly doesn't impact the value these advancements provide.
- Item without an asterisk are time based, meaning you need time to pass in order to get benefit from those advancements, and thus as you level up and begin to complete levels more quickly, the less value these advancements will provide.
- Thus, imho advancements like JS, Additional+Discounted Mercs, the Cache bonuses, Better Hospitals, Crafter Speed, Item Sell Values have higher longer term value than advancements like IACP, Ore sell value, Increased Money from Bonuses. We can call these "long term benefit advancements" (LTBA) and "short term benefit advancements" (STBA).
- STBA are still necessary to do better on your 1st playthrough, even to some degree on your 2nd playthrough. IACP up to 200-300% is still likely going to have some value in early level phases before mercs & crafters come into play.
- But as your level clear times decrease, you're going to have less time to mine ore, to earn money from bonuses, to accumulate armies from army camps, etc. What took 16+ days to clear on the first playthrough and allowed you to generate lots of armies/ore/money, will only take 4-7 days on the 2nd playthrough, vastly reducing the benefit you receive from these STBA. This became clear to me when I compared my level clear stats of levels from my 1st and 2nd playthroughs, and finding that despite upgrading IACP, Ore sell values, Money bonuses, etc, that my armies from camps, income from selling ore & from bonuses was significantly down each time. Of course this is the simple math of VERY LONG TIME * MediumValue >> VERY SHORT TIME * HighValue.
- But the LTBA are related to activities such as buying mercs, capturing territories or caches, crafting items (technically this is still somewhat time based but this LTBA actually makes things craft more quickly, so it mitigates this factor), finishing levels, etc. So the benefit these provide doesn't reduce as your clear speed decreases, and they continue to offer high value despite the value of the STBAs reducing.
- It actually poses the question whether investing in a blend of STBAs & LTBAs to get through the 1st playthrough and maybe part or all of the 2nd is still recommended, and then resetting AP to focus on the LTBAs from that point forward.

Edited 8/5/2021 05:55:17
recipe visibility bug: 8/5/2021 01:34:04

dwaynerudd 
Level 59
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Probably the best analysis on advancements I've seen yet, and by no small margin. well done, and thanks.
recipe visibility bug: 8/10/2021 10:47:19


JK_3 
Level 61
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Very nice analysis krinid, but those advancements only really cover the normal levels. For challenges and WZIB, players who have a lot more than 100% camp production tend to be more successful.

How good will your item based strat work after the new update?
recipe visibility bug: 8/11/2021 20:31:55


krinid 
Level 60
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@JK
This is a strictly WZIP (WZI Proper) strat. WZIB & WZIC require other considerations that I shall refrain from weighing in on.

As for after this update . . . too soon to say. Still on the first level ... Hardened copper Creek, finishing soon . . . and so far the markets are giving me varying results. Some don't go up much, only 1-2%, and others have gone up 10-15%. All I can say so far is that it seems that the more expensive items go up more quickly. Which is terrible, b/c it means gold, platinum, neodymium will be smashed for market-profitable crafting.

As for adjusting the strat ... see this thread:
https://www.warzone.com/Forum/568266-new-warzone-5140-smeltingcrafting-guide?Offset=0

It seems KCE & Sefer's methods are the way forward. This is the way. I think it will slow progress down, b/c it makes the early and mid games slower while investing in mining. Otherwise you get to the end game without enough ore, can't craft, and have missed the potential benefit of having higher ore levels since early game. Maybe Supercharged Mine artifact will become a necessary friend? To put in the 4th Boy.
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