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Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/12/2021 18:26:20


John Smith
Level 55
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I'm pretty bad at the game and while the answer could be to get good I noticed a few other players are put in the same predicament.

The predicament is when playing Warzone Idle and attempting to win a match in the Arena (which places us in a preset QM WZC game), we are often (large majority of times) placed against players who are either significantly more experienced/better.

My suggestion would be to either make it possible to win the Arena through AI means or make it so that if you lost 3-5 matches (maybe surrendering can't be allowed) then you'd be given a pass to fight an AI.

While beating the Arena is not a requirement to clear a level, the boost from it is pretty significant and can ward off new players from playing the game if they get absolutely destroyed by other more experienced players over and over.

Sorry if this suggestion was made already or if it wasn't allowed, I'm relatively new but I'm not too tech savvy and am actually pretty dumb so I have trouble finding stuff already created.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, have a good one everyone!
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/12/2021 18:52:55


JK_3 
Level 61
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The issue you run into with your Arena's is the same as issue that exist with QM: not enough players are looking for a game at the same time.

The system tries to match you (with only 1 template available in case of Arena, and a few more template if you're just playing QM), to someone else that is also looking for a game on your templates. It tries to search for player within a given range around your rating on the specific template, to give you match against someone with about the same skill (in theory).

The problem is that if it doesnt find any players, it searches again, but with a bigger range in rating. This keeps repeating, until you reach the point where matchups become unfair.

I've had games myself where I had over 650 times as high of a rating as my opponent, simply because the other player had been waiting on a game for soo long before i started looking for a game. (https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=27224932 match rating 0.77 vs 504.94)

This cant be easily fixed, cause every fix introduced new problems.

If you let players play vs an AI, its a single player game, and not a multi player one. That would mean that the next time the low rated player gets into a game, he is still lacking the experience to win. On top of that, you run into the issue of what rating the AI should have (since the match rating needs to be adjusted after win), and if the SP game should count as a MP game for the coin wheel.

Not expanding the rating range, will cause players to never find a game, cause they will just be waiting forever for a game. (Which will cause less players to play QM, thus even longer wait times.)

The best thing you can probably do in this case is to play some QM games that are not Arena games. That way you can practice some MP on various QM templates. It should also get your rating up a bit so the matchmaking will work better.

You can find the QM menu under the Multi Player tab. (If you are using the idle-only app, you will need to download the full app.)
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/12/2021 19:35:10


krinid 
Level 60
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Tbh, I think it would a better idea to change arenas to ONLY be vs AI (or at least be able to opt into it). Playing a WZC in the middle of a WZI map is an odd concept to me (although some are fond of it) and actually deflating for players like yourself who keep losing. You're trying to enjoy a SP game and suddenly you're thrust into a MP game against experienced players and get wrecked.

A number of players voiced the same response when first playing WZC. They start with the SP levels and "get good", then play a few MP games and get wrecked b/c real players play much differently than AIs, and they get discouraged.

And to your point, sure you can skip the arenas, but the allure is there, and spending 10-20 mins per attempt and getting 0 for it is harsh. The 2v2 arena is everyone most hated arena, have you seen that one yet?

Playing vs an AI seems reasonable. It's still introducing players to WZC.
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/12/2021 20:12:56

Sevban
Level 58
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Rewards in quickmatches will make more people play quickmatches...
That would be funny and it will be easier to find proper opponent.

Maybe some coins as rewards, monthly or weekly, i dont know really but the main idea is interesting imo.
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/12/2021 20:29:51


John Smith
Level 55
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Thanks guys I really appreciate the detailed and informative responses!

JK_3, I understand that the playerbase is rather limited when it comes to the range searching thing, which is exactly why I propose the AI idea as you already know because obviously nobody expects a noob to beat a pro. I also agree that if players play an AI, it is a single player game and that the player would still be very unlikely to be better when he comes back to the multiplayer scene.
My wording ability is poor but I'll try my best to explain how I feel in the following lines.

Ex: I'm not so smart, and my skills are low. My odds of winning are zero, especially against a pro. I'd like to get better, I really do, but my potential is limited and I can't win a single match against someone skilled like you. While yes I could spend a decent amount of time attempting to improve, I feel it would be worse to spend all that time and still end up being trash and continue to lose. Apparently there's a 2 v 2 Arena as well, I'd definitely avoid that to save my partner the trouble.

I see your reasoning with the coin game too, even though I'm a PC only player and not able to spin, I imagine people must feel the same way.

Is it allowed to ask people to surrender in QM? I've literally felt like doing that but I feel like that would be against the rules lol, thinking of straight up saying "Please, I'm absolute garbage xD and I just want the arena cache." Although I would also not want to completely destroy someone's much higher rating from taking a loss to a scrub like me (by accepting the surrender).

krinid, I completely agree with your thoughts. I'm sure if this game was more populated the issue would be less prevalent, however since it is not the case imo there should be changes made to help especially since it is possible these issues may send away players (saw a case like this the other day). As you stated it's harsh to attempt the arena for 10-20 mins per attempt and just never get rewarded because of inability to win against a superior opponent.
Also imagine the following:

Ex: Play against 5-10 players who are significantly better than you in rating and skill. You finally get matched against someone who is relative to you, but you still lost to them. Then you attempt matching up again but the next 5-10 games are once again against players who are better than you by a large amount xD. That's gotta be soul crushing. Good Practice makes perfect, but bad practice won't improve a player much, especially if they can't figure out what they're doing wrong.

The game and the population are obviously not at fault for this but this game would be a lot better with a lot more players.

The allure you mention is part of something I noticed a lot of individuals feel are dealbreakers. Being presented something that one can't beat because of skill must be very discouraging.
I haven't seen the 2 v 2 arena yet, and oh man I'd feel more discouraged to join that because I wouldn't want my teammate to despise my novice ability and lower their rating as I know how the competitive scene can get.

To reiterate what I said above, I don't mind if we're forced to play a few Arena games in MP, but after a certain amount of losses I think you should get an opportunity to just play against AI. Because at some point you can tell the player is trying but clearly isn't making any ground on their multiplayer playing.

Sorry if my message has any issues for readability.
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/12/2021 21:42:25


JK_3 
Level 61
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Apparently there's a 2 v 2 Arena as well, I'd definitely avoid that to save my partner the trouble.
As long as you and your partner both not get booted in the 2v2 Arena, you will win cause your opponent boots.

Is it allowed to ask people to surrender in QM?
Yes, of course youre allowed to ask that. If they surrender or not is to be seen tho ;) You can always try asking in global chat, maybe someone from there is willing to rig the system a bit.

Ex: Play against 5-10 players who are significantly better than you in rating and skill. You finally get matched against someone who is relative to you, but you still lost to them. Then you attempt matching up again but the next 5-10 games are once again against players who are better than you by a large amount xD. That's gotta be soul crushing. Good Practice makes perfect, but bad practice won't improve a player much, especially if they can't figure out what they're doing wrong.
Yes, that would be terrible for the moral. But with more experience and practice, things do get easier, and you get better at spotting mistakes. And if you play some more games at once, the few Arena games at once dont hurt as much, since you have other games you could win in between. (Also, more games is more wins is more wheel spins, so more powers to make WZI go faster.)

The game and the population are obviously not at fault for this but this game would be a lot better with a lot more players.
There are a lot of players, but not everyone plays RT QM.

A number of players voiced the same response when first playing WZC. They start with the SP levels and "get good", then play a few MP games and get wrecked b/c real players play much differently than AIs, and they get discouraged.

Now imagine starting from the idle-only app, and not even having SP to learn you the basics....

WZC game in the idle-only app make no sense, I do agree on that.
Unless Fizzer just puts more support for learning WZC in the idle app, But than it just becomes the normal app.....

Now back to the topic of playing AI, I guess it could be allowed to happen a few times, but not too much.
Otherwise you get back to the problem of players thinking they are good cause they only ever played AI, and then failing their first 25 MP games.

To combat the lack of players, Fizzer could just make the Arenas real QM. I would love to be able to play Swapped Picks instead of Strat 2v2 for my arena games, but that cant happen. And if Fizz doesnt want to allow all the unlocked QM templates, he should just do the first 7 QM templates. Added benefit of this is that players need to unlock their QM templates, so its not possible to go from a single boot win on SEAD (aka, still 0 experience), to a MA game.
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/16/2021 22:10:22


krinid 
Level 60
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Ex: Play against 5-10 players who are significantly better than you in rating and skill. You finally get matched against someone who is relative to you, but you still lost to them. Then you attempt matching up again but the next 5-10 games are once again against players who are better than you by a large amount xD. That's gotta be soul crushing. Good Practice makes perfect, but bad practice won't improve a player much, especially if they can't figure out what they're doing wrong.
Yes, that would be terrible for the moral. But with more experience and practice, things do get easier, and you get better at spotting mistakes. And if you play some more games at once, the few Arena games at once dont hurt as much, since you have other games you could win in between. (Also, more games is more wins is more wheel spins, so more powers to make WZI go faster.)


Practice makes perfect - in WZC, in its own time, not in the middle of a WZI level. One shouldn't be putting in multiple games of WZC practice especially in 1v1 strat, 2v2 templates, etc, as a side level of WZI. You're not only giving the WZI player a bad experience, you're giving the other players (teams) who actually queued up for a good QM match a bad experience. Sure, some people will just take the easy win and be happy with it, but some people actually want a good match. And they're not expecting to be playing new players in WZI who have never played WZC.

Edited 6/16/2021 22:10:43
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/17/2021 10:46:22

dwaynerudd 
Level 59
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What about giving you option of playing arena game real time or multiday? if you did multiday you would have a better chance at getting assigned to someone your level. Games would take longer, potentially too long to be worthwhile, but having to option wouldn't hurt.
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/17/2021 11:16:43


JK_3 
Level 61
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that would be a great idea, i would be up for that

+1 for MD Arena games!
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/17/2021 11:28:01


Z 
Level 62
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There is one problem with MD arena games:
MD games have a high probability of lasting longer than the level.

There is a bug that I discovered (already reported to Fizzer) that if you are in an Arena game, and you complete the level with the Arena, the "Arena game in progress" notification persists in the next level and does not disappear until after an hour after the Arena game finishes.
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/17/2021 11:38:37


JK_3 
Level 61
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MD games have a high probability of lasting longer than the level.


Fair point, i didnt consider that 😅

Maybe its not such a great idea after all...
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/17/2021 11:41:26


UnFairerOrb76
Level 56
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SNIP
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/17/2021 12:40:23


krinid 
Level 60
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There is one problem with MD arena games:
MD games have a high probability of lasting longer than the level.

There is a bug that I discovered (already reported to Fizzer) that if you are in an Arena game, and you complete the level with the Arena, the "Arena game in progress" notification persists in the next level and does not disappear until after an hour after the Arena game finishes.


How does that work? When you start an arena, doesn't it transition your WZI screen to the WZC arena game and essentially freeze your WZI playing so you can't finish the level?
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/17/2021 13:01:52

Phoenix
Level 21
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Multi-day arenas could work if they were rewarded similarly to how the Free Cache thread works. Just get the reward for whatever idle level is running by the time the arena match is done. I got my Free Cache from the forum thread weeks after I posted there, by the time, I was three maps further into idle and that wasn't a problem at all for me. Or let the player pile up arena rewards just like you can pile up powers that you then can collect whenever you need them.
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/20/2021 14:40:42

dwaynerudd 
Level 59
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just to add one additional data point: I find players on some of the templates are pretty bimodal. either you get noobs with no idea what they're doing, or you get one of the masters of the template who just love their particular template and are always playing. Being a pretty middling player on alot of the templates myself, I know it's going to be either pretty easy, or pretty hard.

I don't know a sure fire fix. templates with more luck (anything with automatic deployment) help even the playing ground. what would help more would be to increase the pool of players. two suggestions for that point:
1- add more arena bonuses throughout idle levels you would get more players within the idle pool.
2-add extra inducements to play qm games for a select few templates. raffle, or extra coins, something.
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/20/2021 14:43:29


JK_3 
Level 61
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How does that work? When you start an arena, doesn't it transition your WZI screen to the WZC arena game and essentially freeze your WZI playing so you can't finish the level?


The exact same way i start Arena games on my phone (where i play idle), but play them on my laptop. Just start them and click back in the app, ignore the notification that an arena game is in progress and play the game on another device while still playing idle on your first device.
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/20/2021 15:15:28

Ryy 
Level 21
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That's helpful to know.
Thanks, I'll see if I can make that work.
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/20/2021 17:36:14


krinid 
Level 60
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@JK
Didn't realize you could do that. Interesting. Any issues in claiming the reward? Does it just pop up on its own when it's finished? Doesn't cause any Sync issues?
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/20/2021 18:01:22


JK_3 
Level 61
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@krinid nope, once the game is over, i just click the 'resume' button in WZI (or if thats disappeared due to weird syncs, reopen the game from the arena building) and at that point WZI will realize i won and award me my cache
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/23/2021 17:58:36

Purdy
Level 28
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I'd also like to see Arena games be single player, or preferably have a choice between the current multiplayer and AI match (maybe for a lower reward). Arenas in their current form seem unfair to Idle players who don't want to play WZC or only play WZC as a single player (like me)

I understand the idea is to expose people to WZC, but I think giving people the choice of MP Arena or AI Area (at say 50% discount in the award) would be more balanced for all players. Some of us just want to play WZ by ourselves on our schedule. It would be nice if arenas were a meaningful option for solo players.
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/24/2021 20:34:22


krinid 
Level 60
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OR ... once you play a human and lose, gain the option to play an AI.

AND ... if you're in the queue with no game for longer than 2 mins, gain the option to play an AI (and with an AI vs 2 AIs if it's the 2v2 template - actually nvm, that template should be axed from WZI, kill it kill it kil it).

yup yup yup
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 6/24/2021 20:35:13


JK_3 
Level 61
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yes, kill 2v2, it suck a lot
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 7/7/2021 22:30:23

Purdy
Level 28
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After posting before I thought I would give arenas another try. And now that I've had the opportunity to play a 2x2 game, I was too tame in my criticism of arenas before. As a low level player 2x2 games are uniquely frustrating. It takes forever to find matches and if any are found they are grossly unbalanced. I just finished a 2x2 where my teammate was booted during territory selection so I got to face two L50+ players solo. That's certainly going to kindle my interest in playing WZ multiplayer.

Arenas became obsolete once WZIB were introduced. They should either be eliminated completely or made only against AI.
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 7/7/2021 22:33:44


JK_3 
Level 61
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Yep, the 2v2's are by far the worst (only ever played 1 for the achievement). Tbh, arena games give so little reward for the effort i have to put into them, that i usually skip them and just finish my level a day later.

Arenas are a terrible introduction to WZ MP, since it has taken the QM system, and removed all the good parts....
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 7/8/2021 14:30:48


krinid 
Level 60
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@Purdy, JK
Truer words have rarely been spoken. 2v2 Arena actually wards players off of WZC b/c it's such a poor experience. Only SEAD & SE1W & maybe SE-ComBom really have a place here at all. Once you go to MME, you're introducing WZI players to potentially long 30+ min games in an environment they don't understand, not going to learn much from, and most likely get owned and not want to play WZC, and not get any rewards for their effort.

All the templates available. ** can stay. The rest should go.

**Defeat Arena: SE Auto
**Defeat Arena: SE 1 Wasteland
Defeat Arena: Strategic 1v1
Defeat Arena: MME Commanders LD No Cards
Defeat Arena: Strategic 2v2
Defeat Arena: Multi-Attack MME Light Fog LD
**Defeat Arena: Small Earth Commander and Bomb Card
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 7/8/2021 14:34:16


JK_3 
Level 61
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Com-bomb isnt viable for new players earlier.

How will they learn commanders are worth 7 armies if no-one explains that to them? They just suddenly lose after failing an attack or losing a territory, and they got nothing that explains why...
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 7/8/2021 15:20:20


krinid 
Level 60
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Very true . . . that is very confusing.

So that brings us to 2 of 7 can stay, the rest should go:
**Defeat Arena: SE Auto
**Defeat Arena: SE 1 Wasteland
Defeat Arena: Strategic 1v1
Defeat Arena: MME Commanders LD No Cards
Defeat Arena: Strategic 2v2
Defeat Arena: Multi-Attack MME Light Fog LD
Defeat Arena: Small Earth Commander and Bomb Card

It would probably be better to just default to have the Arena get WZI players to play an SP game, maybe from the SP campaign. And let experienced players who already have QM ratings, etc, choose to do a QM match template instead of the SP campaign. Or maybe just for players who have already completed the corresponding SP match, they get a QM instead? But then I'd hate to come up along some of those really annoying, multiple attempt, very long SP games as well ... like 3 Blind Mice, Caesar's Challenge, etc. Then again, those are all fairly far into the campaign and given that there's only 7 templates, the games chosen should be early ones, the ones still teaching new users how to play the game. Maybe just the "next" unfinished game in the list? Not sure how this would work but as long as it's still teaching players how to play, would be better than what they're getting now.
Noob suggestion for Arena in Warzone Idle: 7/8/2021 15:22:12


JK_3 
Level 61
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Arenas should give SP levels until the 8th (?) SP level (or whichever one World War 2320 is). After beating WW2320 they should have a decent enough understanding of the game to play MP games.
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