"I said that many people from GG would rate SE as stratergic--- PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER"
- Arrow838

Which players are you talking about? As of now, 7th of July, there is not a single player from GG with more than 3 wins in Div A.
A 3-3 result should, by definition, be considered average and no GG player can guarantee that they outperformed that yet. If you also consider the fact that an average Div A clan would be able to stay afloat in Div A (as the average placement would be 4th), your statement becomes even less logical. I guess I would rather have the EQ of a master than the IQ of someone from Excel.


"I am in GG(which is div A) and I rate SE1W as a template" and "I never said i was a div A player" - also Arrow838

While you dont explicitly say that "you're a div A player" you heavily imply it in the earlier post. I think that is clear for all to see.


"I never said i was a div A player(though i will bo soon :P)- Arrow838 yet again

In two CL seasons? Or are you planning to jump ship on GG? I highly doubt you will be playing in Div A in the near future, but feel free to prove me wrong :) The more great players the merrier.

- Ralph, debunking rubbish and nonsense since 2021

@Ralph, Nauz had said that anyone from a div A clan(which doesnt mean that the player must be worthy for a div A clan) wouldnt rate SE as a stratergic map. And last i checked, GG was a div A clan

Ralph brings up a critical matter, can Arrow's claim even be true?

I said that many people from GG would rate SE as stratergic--- PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER

To analyse this, we first need a list of all the players in GG who are "WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER".

Going through GG I would count:

Mifran
Jake
linberson
JV
Ollie
ADHDnl
MisterT
FlyingBender
Mike

My intuition is if 7/9 of these players thought that SE1W was strategic then that would be enough to back up Arrow's claim that it's "many people from GG", and this is quite possible.

So, in conclusion, it remains possible that Arrow's claim is true.

- Quicksilver, fact-checking the fact-checkers since 2021

@Quicksliver, you forgot Nature (https://www.warzone.com/Profile?p=6580217405)

Sometimes I wonder if Quicksilver is the mastermind and we're all just puppets in her sick game.

Also

My disdain for them is because they serve as traps that prevent players from branching out into other maps and templates.

Awww Nauz, buddy. You're telling me all this time, you just wanted to play me in other templates?? Aww, you just had to ask :3 you silly goose

Edited 7/7/2021 12:18:57

I really hate the fact that i must agree with a masterling,but i guess it's the exception of the rule here...
So,long story short,too much discussion about a small map,made for the newcomers to learn the basics of this game,that is not even in the last CL tournaments.If there are many divA players that really consider SE as a strategic map,then why is not back in CL..?Maybe coz there are too many other maps that are way more strategic than SE..?Just asking.........

Name me anyone who would want SE as a CL-template. There are levels of strategic templates: templates that are robust enough to be included in CL, semi-strategic templates played mostly on MTL, and then SE-level templates that require some brain but do not even qualify for MTL. There is a reason why SE has never been on the MTL. Not to speak of CL. From what I gather, Arrow is implying SE is strategic enough to be even included on CL. And then using "appeal to authority" by invoking a list of his clanmates who are apparently " PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER" which is demonstrably false. Those are a list of people way better than your average strategic player but they are not "WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER". Otherwise, they should be killing it this CL shouldn't they?

Edited 7/7/2021 13:03:24

I like how, in the absence of Phobos playing his games, this thread has become a free for all of people shitting on each other lmao

> I said that many people from GG would rate SE as stratergic--- PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER

GG doesn't have many people way better than average Div A. If they did they wouldn't have frequently relegated out of A.

> Going through GG I would count:

Mifran
Jake
linberson
JV
Ollie
ADHDnl
MisterT
FlyingBender
Mike


This is super generous IMO.

I don't think any of those are way better than average Div A. Some are better than average, others are, about average. Note that when I say Div A, I mean players that PLAY in Div A, not people who are merely members of clans which are in Div A.

Mifran, Jake, Ollie, MisterT are probably better than average in Div A. The rest are probably close to average in Div A. ADHDnl, Bender and linberson I'd personally probably rate as below average even.

ie. Lets look at their actual Div A performances.

Season 14:
Europe team: 1-3
Europe Magnum: 2-3
Final Earth: 0-2
Guiroma: 1-2
Landria Earth: 3-0
Malvia: 2-3
Strat ME: 2-3
Guiroma: 1-3
Biomes: 1-5
French Brawl: 2-3
Bork: 1-4

Total: 16-31 34% winrate
Breakdown per supposedly 'way above average' player:

Mifran: 3-6
Jake: 2-3
linberson: 2-5
JV: 2-5
ADHDnl: 2-3

Not one of them has a winning record in Div A this season.

Same is true for Nature, who Arrow suggested be included:
He's 5-7

Nature might be way above average AT Landria. But that's really the only tournament GG isn't a punching bag in.

Edited 7/7/2021 15:46:52

My good friend and fellow debunker, Quicksilver, brings up an important point in his rebuttal:

To analyse this, we first need a list of all the players in GG who are "WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER".

In arrow838's own words, there are

many people from GG [...] WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER

But this brings up an important question: What defines a player WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER?

1.1 Assumptions:
I assume that "PEOPLE" refers to players of this game, and that "BETTER" refers to their in-game skill. While there are "PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER" outside of this game, such as Mother Theresa and Oprah Winfrey, I fail to see how their traits would be relevant in the evaluation of whether or not SE is strategic or not, and I also fail to see their interest in the subject. Thus, the following response will only focus on perceived in-game skill, and not on other traits and accomplishments.

1.2 Definition of DIV A PLAYER:
In order to figure out what defines "PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER" we first have to decide which characteristics are required in order to be considered a DIV A PLAYER.
After doing a quick survey, I've gathered one key trait:

1: They need to have played at least 1 slot in Div A

For the sake of simplicity I have only considered the current season of Clan League, as the statement was given in present-tense by Arrow838 (also I only had the CL14 sheet easily available).

1.3 Definition of WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER:
Average is, per definition, a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data. Consequently, an average performance in Div A would be 3-3. I have chosen this value, 3-3, as it would be the central tendency if each player had the same skill and each of the games could be considered a 50/50 coin-toss.

Using common sense, which can be difficult to come across on online forums, and surveys, I have come to the conclusion that a performance on a slot in Div A can be put in the following tiers:

0-6: "Go Back To B"-tier
1-5: "What checkmqte thought HAWKS mvp would perform"-tier
2-4: "Below average, and proud of it"-tier
3-3: "Average"-tier
4-2: "Above average"-tier
5-1: "WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER"-tier
6-0: "Super Mega OP Chad"-tier

For players with more slots than one you can simply multiply the values with the amount of slots and figure out which tier you belong in. Keep in mind that these values are considered the upper limit, so a 7-5 or a 10-8 performance would be considered "Above average" and a 9-3 or a 13-5 considered "WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER" for the sake of leniency.

1.4 Fact-checking Quicksilver's list of PEOPLE WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER:

Mifran:

Current Performance: 3-6
Highest Possible Tier: Average
Lowest Possible Tier: Below average, and proud of it

Jake

Current Performance: 2-3
Highest Possible Tier: Average
Lowest Possible Tier: Below average, and proud of it

linberson

Current Performance: 2-5
Highest Possible Tier: Above average
Lowest Possible Tier: What checkmqte thought HAWKS mvp would perform

JV

Current Performance: 2-5
Highest Possible Tier: Above average
Lowest Possible Tier: What checkmqte thought HAWKS mvp would perform

Ollie

Current Performance: Not participating
Highest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player
Lowest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player

ADHDnl

Current Performance: 2-3
Highest Possible Tier: Average
Lowest Possible Tier: Below average, and proud of it

MisterT

Current Performance: Not participating
Highest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player
Lowest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player

FlyingBender

Current Performance: Not participating
Highest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player
Lowest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player

Mike

Current Performance: Not participating
Highest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player
Lowest Possible Tier: Not a Div A player

As you can see, not a single player falls in under the WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER category/tier, which would mean that no such player exists in GG based on current performance. However, as Thrall and Nature are also Div A players I believe these should be considered as well:

Thrall:

Current Performance: 5-3
Highest Possible Tier: WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER
Lowest Possible Tier: Average

Nature

Current Performance: 5-7
Highest Possible Tier: Average
Lowest Possible Tier: Below average, and proud of it

1.5 Conclusion:
Considering this, GG might have one player who is WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER, should Thrall win his 4 last games. If he deems SE to be strategic, then

many people from GG [...] WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER

would still be false, but if Arrow had said

one person from GG [...] WHO ARE WAY BETTER THAN AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER

then that would've been true.

- Ralph, fact-checking the fact-checking fact-checkers since 2021

Edited 7/7/2021 15:54:27

According to your stats, mod will be placed in the lowest tier, but in reality he is one of the best players in wz, which proves that your stats arnt accurate and one cant be judged based on their cl performance.

FYI Thrall isnt the very best player in GG. He wont be in top 20(all players including retiered) or top 10(active players)

According to your stats, mod will be placed in the lowest tier, but in reality he is one of the best players in wz, which proves that your stats arnt accurate and one cant be judged based on their cl performance.

Good refutation. But at least ralph provided some tangible evidence.

I challenge you to actually provide evidence/analysis to back up your claims.

I have won more games against thrall than he has won against me(Mind you, i didnt count SE games). So by your logic, i am way better than thrall(i might be idk); and thrall is the best player in GG(which he isnt ofc--not close at all)

So you were using CL performance by saying "WAY BETTER THAN THE AVERAGE DIV A PLAYER" to back up your appeal to authority about SE1W and now you are saying " one cant be judged based on their cl performance"?

I dont have all the time in the world as Ralph has. I am just ending this this discussion, as i dont think its worth my time. You may think whatever you want.

How very kind of you to let us choose what we think! I think I'll use this newfound liberty to choose to think you were very, very wrong.

btw, Photonic Symmetry, i have won 5 out of 6 SE games against you had to call octane for help in order to take your coins back. Which proves that SE is a stratergic template. If you still dont agree, do bo11(score will be 6-1 or 6-0)

Lol, only FCC/Dicovery members are in favor of ralph(idc anywhichways)

I dont have all the time in the world as Ralph has. I am just ending this this discussion, as i dont think its worth my time. You may think whatever you want.

You sound like a certain guy with orange skin and wild hair who wants to build a wall on the southern border.