Thanks Brisk.

I do think Gnuff is being helpful though.

I read his 1st post and he wrote that it's a shame fizzer doesn't want to listen to "us".

also gnuffone, stop complaining to fizzer all the time. I've never seen any other game creator who makes polls and cares about the players like fizzer does. and I think you forget that he decides about the game, not you. You can't always get what you want.

I just say my PERSONAL opinion. Can i do this? well yes...

I read his 1st post and he wrote that it's a shame fizzer doesn't want to listen to "us".

Well yes it is, bc ladder are make for be competitive, and my suggestion would make the ladder perfect.
However i am not the only who say this. if you want i can link dozen of player that want the same exactly me.

Edited 9/2/2014 12:51:48

(reply to something said on the first page)

If/when changes to the ladders are implemented.. Will the ladders be reset?

i think it's obvious. Most bc if the change are like to put TrueSkill, is not possible keep past record anyway.

It's technically possible and not very server consuming to once run the TS algorithm on all past games. I actually really like that idea, as we'd get to see who actually played consistently well (I'm thinking Impaller, zibik/fatality, Timi, piggy, Heyheuhei, ...).
And people who gamed the system in the past and left with 5 losses in a row will get a nice punishment as a bonus, who could oppose that? :-)

Math Wolf, I love that idea.

the expiration is 3 months, so wouldn't change much anyway..

I just say my PERSONAL opinion. Can i do this? well yes...

Yes you can (and it's even recommended to do it), but it's not very nice to do it like that. fizzer doesn't owe you anything, that's the point. you should be thankful that he actually makes these polls and wants to hear players' suggestions.

Edited 9/2/2014 13:38:44

contentious apex is contentious

I fixed that one question to say "finished" games instead of "won" games -- thanks for pointing that out.

The ladders will not be reset. It may seem by reading these polls that the ladders would change a lot, but note that not everything listed is going to change. This is just to get a feel for what kinds of changes are most desired. As I said in the original forum post, for the 1v1 and 2v2 ladders, I prefer to make targeted incremental changes, not complete overhauls.

If the ladders changed to Trueskill, there would be different options on how to do the transition.

One option is to re-run every game ever played through Trueskill and use the resulting ratings. This would be as if Trueskill was used from day 1. This makes some sense, since games in a Trueskill world wouldn't expire.

Another is to simply start Trueskill with the current ratings and continue. This makes some sense, since players before Trueskill were playing under bayeselo so they should be rated under bayeselo.

Another option is to run the last 3 months in Trueskill. This doesn't seem to make any real-world sense since the 3-month expiration wouldn't apply to Trueskill.

I have to second Brisk about Gnuffone. thx Fizzer

Are you saying we'll need another poll? ;)

If the ladders changed to Trueskill, there would be different options on how to do the transition.

One option is to re-run every game ever played through Trueskill and use the resulting ratings. This would be as if Trueskill was used from day 1. This makes some sense, since games in a Trueskill world wouldn't expire.

Another is to simply start Trueskill with the current ratings and continue. This makes some sense, since players before Trueskill were playing under bayeselo so they should be rated under bayeselo.

Another option is to run the last 3 months in Trueskill. This doesn't seem to make any real-world sense since the 3-month expiration wouldn't apply to Trueskill.

I like the first option a lot, but I think the second would make most sense for players and coder.

As mentioned, why no 3v3 europe option?

Also, last template on RT suggestions says map does not exist (slow earth).

slow earth is the ME template of szew :P

I'm actually a little curious about the practical implementation of the second option. After all, the standard deviations in TrueSkill play a major role, while those of BayesElo are mostly hidden. I wonder if they show the same features and if BayesElo SD's can be simply used as TS SD's without some really weird things happening.

@ Arun: for player yes, but for coder option 1 is actually easier.

Option 3 doesn't make sense indeed as your first unexpired game counts as if you and your opponent are both playing someone unranked (which wasn't the case when the game was created).

((Funny how I do like option 1 much better myself while I would be almost certainly be better off with option 2.))

I don't like option 2

People with inflated rating would start with an inflated rating instead of the place they should be

I thought that myself Timi, then I thought about it some more. Wouldn't those people who gamed the system be hurt by using all games in TruSkill? Afterall, they probably had a high rating based on a small sample of unexpired games. I would think re-running it on all games would benefit those who did not game the system, as all games would be taken into account. Also, if you were a staller, those stalled losses which really did not effect your ladder rating before (since the player probably just left the ladder and let the losses happen), would now count against them.

I'd like to hear more from Math Wolf on this comparison, but it would seem to me that we'd want to count all old games so that real wins/losses are factored in, without the time element that ELO cares about (which is where the manipulation is happening).

isn't best reset the ladder? i thought was obvious. If we change setting/rating sysstem/etc, why old game should count?

Afterall, they probably had a high rating based on a small sample of unexpired games. I would think re-running it on all games would benefit those who did not game the system, as all games would be taken into account

It would also benefit those who abandon old account(s) with worse record and punish those who play continuously with same account