oooooooooooh. mans getting called out

Also, Master Ryiro, I'd love to play you man. I'll message you again when I'm not sleepy and we can set something up tho. You seem like a nice person to play :)

And vena, you get him. He's bein a total dick to you and he has no right to insult you like that. Johny boy, your fight is with me. Don't drag other people into it. They're just making observations on reality.

Ryiro I think you'll like this game it's got very cools settings
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=26941424

Does this mean you accept Johnny's counter challenge to play on both SE & ME?

I'm just curious ... cuz ... this is so entertaining and we all wanna see this go down! lolol

Oh no, like I said, I haven't read his post yet. He was talking mad shit about Small Earth, and had opportunities to back down from his elitist ramblings, but he didn't. His options now are either 1) stop shit talking Small Earth, 2) admit that he'd lose at Small Earth, or 3) play me. MME doesn't factor into this at all. I never said anything to insult MME. The challenge on Small Earth is in direct response to the shit he was saying.

It must make him so mad that he has to play a "commoner" like me, but so be it. If his clan won't shut him up, then I will.

No joke! I have anonymous donors on the line willing to fund any coins I need to beat you. So dude! We can do this after all. Who would have thought right??

This is getting a bit extreme. Is that you, Phobos? For some random reasons I believe it might be AI aka Beep Beep Jeep or one of his mates.

Edit: I haven't read my own quote, not "donor" but "donors".

Edited 5/17/2021 15:30:38

Good luck Sanmu!

Nauz, I think you're overestimating the luck factor in SE as well as how well you've figured out the template. At the top level, there is a skill cap (which AI can tell anyone about) and it's indeed easy for anyone who's good at Warzone in general to "solve" SE and play optimally or very close to it. But it doesn't become a luckfest nearly as early in the process, and given your penchant for leaving SE to play Strat 1v1 as early as you can, I don't think you've gotten to the level of skill where it becomes skill-capped. There's a good argument to be made that most elite players significantly underperform on SE (see: Clan Wars). If you seriously aimed for the #1 spot on the SE QM board, you'd easily get pretty far since you understand picking, counters, etc.; but there's micro-optimizations (or just small-scale tactics) on SE that are distinct from what you'd see on a medium-sized map, and ime this is where elite players tend to underperform on SE. SE builds a different set of skills than what you learn on medium-sized maps, and it's complementary- you become a better SE player by playing MTL templates and the insights from SE help you improve a little bit on MTL templates.

It's a fast template to learn but not a worthless one. Look at SE Masters and you'll see that even at the top levels the games do not often play out the way you suggest.

Give it a more serious look before you dismiss it. There is skill in its outcomes; it's just not very skilled by Warzone standards which tend to be absurdly high since, e.g., MTL rankings are far more skill-driven than most real life sports. Even SEAD has significant skill differentiation.

---

Also, sanmu speaks from a position of greater credibility when talking about human communication, given his field (law) spends a lot of time and energy getting good at precisely and effectively communicating with people- including ordinary people- about complex subjects (not just law but basically anything, since you could have an expert witness from any background). Lawyers have actually quietly gotten communicating with humans down to an art and their literature on the subject is impressive. Look into books about communication skills for lawyers; most of them are generalizable, and lawyers' work in that domain goes into far more depth than I've seen in communication books targeted at non-lawyers.

Edited 5/17/2021 15:59:41

> Small Earth Wasteland, Best of 11. 1 minute timer with 2 minutes banked.

No. You can use that template if you want, but not RT. RT hugely favors whoever has played the template the most, by turning it into a intuitive game rather than a calculated one. You also seem to have also ignored the part about that if you actually want to prove something, since you're the one making challenges after all, you should be able to beat me at templates I actually play, since you were making claims that I am nowhere near the top at said templates.

Then again I suppose I shouldn't expect much, if you think a best of 11 means you'd profit 11,000 coins.

Best of 11 means first to win 6. It's 11 games at most. Saying that you'd win 11,000 implies you'd win 11 games. The only way it goes to 11 games is if someone wins 6-5, in which case the winner loses 200 coins and the loser loses 2000.

Best case scenario would be someone sweeping 6-0 and winning 4800 coins, and other player losing 6000. House (aka Fizzer) takes a 20% cut from all coin games.

> You are not reading all of my text well:

Read it just fine, it was just too stupid to be worth responding to.

You're bad, so you claim you lose because you don't try to win. You don't need to put a lot of effort into winning most games if you're any good at the game. I can play quickly and take 30 second turns vs most people and win the majority of the time.

Statistics don't mean everything, far from it actually, winrates are hugely dependent on who you play against. You can't decide someone with a 80% winrate is better than someone with 70% by just looking at their winrates.

You can however decide that someone with 37% winrate is bad, because for that winrate to be anything but garbage they'd need to be playing vs 2000+ elo opponents every game. You're not. Therefore you're bad.

I expect I could beat you 20 games in a row quite comfortably without breaking a sweat.

Sanmu is not a better player than me, or as good of a player as me, but he's at least decent; unlike you. I've never claimed I'd sweep him 6-0, or that I'd beat him every game, but I'm still very confident that I'd beat him well over 50% as well, especially on templates that aren't small earth.

Edited 5/17/2021 16:23:16

> Johny boy, your fight is with me. Don't drag other people into it. They're just making observations on reality.

They're making observations on things they aren't qualified to comment on. People who are mediocre at something don't decide how good people much better than themselves are. That's not how that works, in any field.

I don't think you understood the post earlier where I told you you weren't special, and that I don't have any "fight" with you. You seem to be the one wanting a fight with me. I'm just a blunt asshole, you're not special buttercup.

> He was talking mad shit about Small Earth, and had opportunities to back down from his elitist ramblings, but he didn't.

Really wasn't, just stated the obvious.

It's not that >I< look down on small earth. The entire competitive scene does. It's not on MTL, despite MTL having over 50 templates. That tells you pretty clearly what others think of the template. I don't decide what templates are on the MTL, a panel of people who play on the MTL do.

I don't choose the clan league templates either. The reason it isn't in clan league is because it isn't highly regarded by any of the division A clans members.

You beating me at small earth literally proves nothing, other than that you're potentially better than me at something I've never piut any effort into and don't value enough to put effort into.

Edited 5/17/2021 16:26:21

Well, we both know that you'd have an edge over sanmu over MD MTL because he's been almost entirely focused on SE so far. He'll pick up conventional strategic play while in M'Hunters, I'm sure, but beating him in a best of 11 on MD Strat ME wouldn't prove anything and wouldn't be remotely surprising. You are, like you've said a few times, the gatekeeper of "elite" status on conventional strategic play (i.e., people can't call themselves elite unless they can beat you) and sanmu is just beginning to learn conventional strategic play. Even if you're nowhere near the top at those templates (which I think is something you'd normally concede), sanmu has little chance of beating you there since he's just now starting to get into them.

You should consider taking him up on the offer of a best-of-11 RT Small Earth. You're right that you'd be playing at a disadvantage there, since sanmu probably has played that template over a thousand more times than you and has built significant intuition. I've run into him on QM since his early days on the site when he was just someone who I kept beating to level up my alts, and by now he's actually gotten quite good. Not up there with Ozi, AI, and the others who have really figured out SE, but pretty far along the intuition journey. To his credit, he also understands a lot of the game mechanics and tactics like move order, picking/counterpicking, delays, and the like, so it's far from pure intuition. Sanmu has all the core ingredients of being an excellent player and if he puts his energy into learning conventional strategic play he could be elite pretty soon (on MTL templates); I think if M'H is able to convince him to learn MD MTL templates the way he learns RT SE, he'll show up on their CL roster soon enough. It's just the common barrier of getting a big fish from a small pond to start exploring the ocean.

A best-of-11 RT SE1W series with, say, 10+5 boot time, would be a middle ground imo. You don't seem to think SE requires much skill at all, and 10min on that tiny map should be more than enough time for you to analyze and make decisions based on your strategic logic rather than pure intuition. It'll be meaningful- it'll test whether you've really got SE as figured out as you seem to think. Sanmu's position in SE is actually somewhat analogous to yours: he's not the best player but he can beat the best on occasion and can reliably beat players who are not great on SE. Like how you are the gatekeeper of elite status on Strat ME, he is the gatekeeper of elite status on SE. If you're truly a top player on SE, you can probably beat him. If you can't beat him, you don't have SE figured out.

Plus just playing a short series like that would help you come to an understanding, give us concrete new information, and maybe show you that SE really isn't cancer.

Edited 5/17/2021 16:26:38

> Well, we both know that you'd have an edge over sanmu over MD MTL because he's been almost entirely focused on SE so far.

I didn't say MD MTL, I just said the small earth games had to be MD, not RT. He was also the one insulting my ability to play the templates I do actually play, so I told him if he wanted to actually prove that I'm bad at them like he claims I am, then he should be confident enough to challenge me without also demanding the home court advantage while doing so.

My prediction for best of 11 on SE would probably be me winning 6-3 or 6-4, I've never suggested I'd sweep, he has suggested he would.

Strat ME though? That I'd expect to sweep, or at worst win 6-1.

http://wzclot.eastus.cloudapp.azure.com/tournaments/570/

Poised to sweep much better opponents than him in a ME RR as of this moment. CJ, Eoghan, Mr. Carpenter, and texx would all smack sanmu around on that template.

> If you're truly a top player on SE, you can probably beat him.
You're both seeming to make strawman arguments. I've never once claimed to be a "top SE player".

I didn't insult Sanmu's ability to play SE. He repeatedly insulted my ability to play templates I do actually play.

Edited 5/17/2021 16:42:10

I'm not bad and I'm not interested in being very good in this game like you. I play it for fun. Looking down to people is very bad of you. It's easy to underestimate your opponent by that. You're good at playing Warzone, but very bad in seeing the difference between player who are bad and player who are average or good and play for the fun.

Maybe there are a few players who look down to the Smal Earth, but that does not mean the entire Warzone community of top players does. There are enough top players who play the Small Earth template after all.

You're not the one who makes the rules for how good or bad someone is, which map is better or when people shoud react to you. People can see that by themselves and determine it by themselves how good or bad they are in Warzone.

I'm looking forward to the match between Sanmu and Johnny.

Edited 5/17/2021 16:42:03

Oh sure, best-of-11 SE1W MD would be more than fair between you. sanmu has no delusions about being top-tier on MTL MD templates, while you have no delusions about being top-tier on SE1W RT intuition. SE1W MD would have good signal-to-noise due to your analogous role with sanmu. You represent the bar to be an elite player in general while sanmu represents the bar to be a top-tier player on SE.

If you win without having played much SE at all, then that signals you're right about the template being fairly easy to figure out if you come from an MD MTL background, because it would mean you're probably a top-tier SE player without having put in any effort to learn SE. If sanmu wins, then that corroborates my hypothesis about conventional elite skills not fully translating to SE that easily and SE having its additional set of microtactics that need to be learned and offer significant advantages.

So are you both up for best-of-11 SE1W multi-day (I'm guessing 1d+2d boot)?

Basically, if Nauz wins, then SE is probably a joke that anyone who's good at the game can figure out. If sanmu wins, then maybe we should take that template more seriously. Now we just wait on either or both of them to agree to the series...

Edited 5/17/2021 16:40:26

> I'm not bad

Everyone says this.

Ask a room of 100 people how many of them think they're above average at something.

You're going to get a lot more than 50 people saying they view themselves this way.

Lets pretend you and I play the same opponents, we don't, my opponents are better than yours, even with my higher winrate, but we can pretend we play the same opponents for the sake of explanation.

Our average opponent is hypothetically 1500 elo.

If you beat someone rated 1500 80% of the time, you are rated 1740. If you beat them 37% of the time you are rated 1410. Someone rated 1740 is predicted to beat someone rated 1410 87% of the time.

If I can beat someone 87% of the time, they're bad. But I wouldn't beat you 87% of the time, because a more realistic analysis is that my average opponents are probably 1800 elo, and yours are 1200 elo. That puts us at 2040 vs 1110, at which point I'd be predicted to beat you roughly 100% pf the time. More precisely, you'd be predicted to win 1 game in a series of 212 games.

If that doesn't make you bad, what the hell does?

Oh no, like I said, I haven't read his post yet. He was talking mad shit about Small Earth, and had opportunities to back down from his elitist ramblings, but he didn't. His options now are either 1) stop shit talking Small Earth, 2) admit that he'd lose at Small Earth, or 3) play me. MME doesn't factor into this at all. I never said anything to insult MME. The challenge on Small Earth is in direct response to the shit he was saying.

Uhhh, there's a vast difference between MME and ME, you're talking about MME, while Johnny talks about ME.
Get your templates right.

I don't care about statistics and I play this for fun. That's the reason the winrate is not so high. That's hard to imagine for a player who does everything to win and to become better each game.

Edited 5/17/2021 16:47:24

"I could improve if I desired." is a different statement than "I'm not bad."

The former might be true, the latter definitely isn't.

Also I think a lot of you would actually get along but have just gotten off on the wrong foot due to misunderstandings.

Nauz is a bit of an open elitist but he's also, like he said, someone who will go to great lengths to help someone who wants to learn conventional strategic play. He has no delusions about being the best player on this site but he just seems to have a problem with players who think they're top-tier when they're not. I think that's how he's seeing sanmu, but sanmu is just a guy who's good at RT SE and doesn't claim to be great at anything else.

sanmu is a relatively new player who's so far been almost exclusively playing SE and pushing for the top of the SE leaderboards on QM. He's just beginning to discover the strategic competitive scene and I think if given a few nudges he'll like it a lot and probably get very good at it. He seems to not like it when people are disrespectful (especially if they are disrespectful on the basis of elitism) and Nauz's comments came across to him that way and, lacking context, he judged the MASTER clan that way when the MASTER clan is full of very nice and helpful and interesting people that are great if you can get along with them.

The net effect is that this thread is full of drama and personal attacks, but I'm pretty sure everyone embroiled in it would get along nicely if they'd just gotten to know one another differently. The drama here and having to deal with people telling him he's not good because he only plays SE are driving sanmu away from the competitive, medium-sized map strategic scene. He's now got something to prove on Small Earth and thinks that the community here are kind of prickish, so instead of nudging him in a direction where he'll grow and discover the best parts of the game, you're driving him away.

None of you need to defend your egos. The community has a good idea of who Nauz is, who the MASTER clan is, and can probably get a rough picture of where sanmu is. Almost no one's gonna come out of this with a changed opinion of any of that. So instead of getting caught up in all that, why not make the effort to get along? sanmu could get to see the good side of Timi, Nauz, and other people who've made a bad impression during this drama- both of them are insanely helpful to new players in his position and go well out of their way to provide training and the like. Nauz et al. could bring a new promising player into the community and nudge him in the direction of getting good at conventional strategic play and realizing he likes it even more than RT SE. All of that seems like it'd do more good than bickering on here.

You're all good people and good-enough players for where you are and what you care about. No need to spend so much effort trying to defend yourselves. Drama is entertaining but here and in many other places that comes at the expense of the community and the game.

Edited 5/17/2021 16:58:47

Lol, everyone can improve if they want it. I play many different games and template instead of just a few for the fun. Maybe you play only a few templates where you're really good in those by often playing these. Winning and statistics are everything for you.

Some people like to invest much time in becoming better in Warzone, other people don't. Both is fine and also the top players be beaten by lower ranked players. By unterestimating them, by surpising them or by playing better.

Being a nice and a kind person is much more important thing than the whole Warzone game.