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Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 12:31:39


dunga • apex 
Level 57
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Hi guys, as you all may know if we wait until the end of everygame to the tournament to go on, it would probably go on to end of 2013. So the games will have to be force finished at the announced dates.

This is the formula Fizzer uses in the seasonal ladders: Income(x2)+Number of total armies.

I will use this same formula but with a twist.

Every time a player doesnt make a play in each 24 HOURS he can be issued a warning. It can be given each day, and for every away player. (If two players are away in the 7v7 you can issue 2 warnings in the first day, and have 4 warnings by the end of second day).
Is every teams duty to issue warnings in the public Chat of the game.

Each warning will have a 3% impact in total score, counting for your opponent.
(Income(x2) + Number of total armies)*(1 + Warnings(*0,03))

This way if the players choose to go slow pace way, they can almost double their opponents score and therefore make winning almost impossible.

Hope you guys like it and understand, and as usual feel free to ask any thing that remained unclear.

And by the way, as of tomorrow (SUNDAY july 15th) games in the 1st round will also be open to be issued warnings on slow pacers.
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 12:42:00


Ska2D2 
Level 55
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Does it have to apply at the weekends? ... have a heart dunga :)
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 13:29:13


dunga • apex 
Level 57
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it wont matter to your team to have a few warnings once and a while, and it wont matter at all if the game finishes. Adding this kind of exception is impossible to control.
The deal is we can know every 24 hours period because the game shows it in the bottom right.
I need to rush in way, this tournament will remain scheduled, so far this is the idea that i got and i think will work it. Feel free to give us idea of how to make the game finish in time, if its a better idea we change it.
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 14:19:03


amerlafrance 
Level 57
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when does July 15 start; germany and western us are hours apart and it is Sunday in germany earlier. Also, can the first warning be at 00:00:01 on Sunday or only at 00:00:01 Monday (24 hours after this started). Suggest you use GMT as the baseline.
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 16:28:49

Yeon 
Level 61
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How about an exception for picks and the first turn? Give people a bit of a chance to notice the game has started and coordinate the start.

I also don't feel so well about the whole thing (I think this system will be seriously gamed rather than game played as normally), but I understand that people will also game the lack of a system if there is none.

In the end, I suggest that we at least wait until Monday 0:00:01 GMT with first warnings. After all, when people don't know about the warning system yet, it's not really fair for them to come home and have knocked their team out of Nations Cup inadvertently when they submitted their previous orders on time and had a schedule that'd fit in well before boot next turn.

We need to know exactly when warnings start as soon as possible, though, since I think a number of games will be decided because of when this time limit is.
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 17:11:22


dunga • apex 
Level 57
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Very good points Yeon, for the picks and game start I understand leaving it out.

And how will be this system gamed if by gaming it you should be getting closer to reaching the end game, giving your oponents every time more turns to work?
Slow playing for points can't be done in a game your team is loosing even if by 1%. And the map has too little gap points and too many places to walk for, i think it will still be decided ingame. This first rounds will certainly let us take a look how it will work.

Monday 0:00:01 GMT is fine for the warnings to start.
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 18:41:43


[REGL] Pooh 
Level 60
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Well, we have 7v7, 3v3 and 1v1, are the penalties for all of the games? It seems the longest games are the 7v7 and significant time is needed for strategy on those games.

Perhaps a better system would be to use the "Speed" feature and check everyone's average turn length (it shows last 10 turns) and average it to come up with a multiplier?
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 18:53:09


dunga • apex 
Level 57
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thats not a bad idea
the teams should be accounted for the slower player than?

the warning system also add a visual boost, players will feel rush, making the pace naturally become faster.
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 19:05:07


Niko 
Level 58
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Or some player will play for other Dunga ;) You know what i mean...
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 19:29:56

Yeon 
Level 61
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Yes, as Niko hints to, this rule probably means we should share passwords within the team. I'm not sure if that's legal within the Warlight rules, but it would be a huge advantage.

Also, I would prefer not to say how to win games using this system since perhaps not everyone will realise how to be lame about it and the less of it we see, the better.
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 19:35:02


dunga • apex 
Level 57
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what should we do than?

Remember that after this round groups all games will have to end at 1 month period.

And, cant people already share their password or guide play or have fake accounts despite this rule?
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 20:32:44


Ⓖ. Ⓐrun 
Level 57
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with warning system, can't teams make deals with each other to not give each other warnings

I've seen this happen already
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 20:52:09


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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How, praytell, have you seen this when you aren't involved in the tournament?
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 20:55:23


Ⓖ. Ⓐrun 
Level 57
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Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 21:13:53

RvW 
Level 46
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Perhaps a better system would be to use the "Speed" feature and check everyone's average turn length (it shows last 10 turns) and average it to come up with a multiplier?

thats not a bad idea
the teams should be accounted for the slower player than?

How about the following:
  • Copy each players "Playing speed" list
  • For each number subtract 24 hours (if it becomes negative, consider it zero; we only want to give a mild penalty to players going over 24 hours, not give a bonus for playing really fast, right?)
  • Do something sensible to create a "fair" average
  • Use that average (maybe after some scaling) in the same way you wanted to use the 3% penalties.
Let me know if you need help on the formulas. Just tell me how it should work (current assumption: spending 1 minute or 24 hours is "the same"; do you want to mostly penalize going a little bit over 24 hours all the time, or do you want to mostly penalize going far over the 24 hours a single time?) and I'll whip something up.


I like this system a lot more:
  • It's less work (less bookkeeping)
  • If teams decide to make an effort to finish a game, they will benefit (since only the last ten turns count)
  • I'd feel guilty about issuing a warning like originally proposed; this system puts everyone in control of their own "scoring modifier"
Yes, I'm aware really nasty opponents can still game the system a bit (I won't go into details, for the same reason as Yeon), but it only applies to Round 1 (and in later rounds when a team sets themselves up for it) so I think it's not too much of an issue.
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 21:19:10

RvW 
Level 46
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with warning system, can't teams make deals with each other to not give each other warnings

Is that a problem then? If each team plays "fast enough" there won't be warnings either. When we reach the deadline, the games can still be ended "by formula", there just won't be any "+3%" penalties that have to be taken into account. If teams agree on this, why not let them?
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 23:32:41


orinocoflows 
Level 59
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in my view this is a bad idea
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/14/2012 23:57:19

RvW 
Level 46
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orinocoflows, there's a lot of ideas in this thread; which one do you consider a bad idea? Secondly, could you explain why you think it's a bad idea? Just saying it's bad is not very helpful and not very convincing either... Lastly, do you have a better suggestion?
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/15/2012 00:26:50

Aziridine 
Level 29
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I second RvW's idea - the original idea of issuing repeated "warnings" seemed unnecessarily antagonistic and I think the spirit of friendly competition would have been ruined by it. RvW, please go ahead and propose a concrete formula so we have something to decide on.
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/15/2012 07:08:22

Yeon 
Level 61
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RvW: For your idea, perhaps we don't need an average at all? Perhaps just take the slowest player's record and use that.

I do think that system is more gameable than the initial one, but it's much nicer to
1) Just focus on the last ten turns
and
2) Avoid the antagonistic warnings

So I think it's better.

I'd like to propose a variation on RvW's idea, though. If we're willing to do a little work, then perhaps use a formula like this:


For each of the 10 last turns:
Take the number of hours the slowest player (P) used that turn = X
Take the number of hours the slowest player who isn't on Ps team used = Y

If X is less than 24 then X becomes 24
If Y is less than 24 then Y becomes 24

Z=X-Y

Then Z is the number of hours beyond 24h the slowest team delayed the game. Add this for each team, and allow a mimimal grace (say, 12 or 24 hours total for the last 10 turns). Hours beyond this are added with multiplier to the opponent's score (0.5% per hour?).

Pros:
* It's less gameable (as far as I can see): Delay caused = points lost
* We avoid the warnings
* There is no work to be done underway

Cons:
* It does mean a bit of administrative work when game ends.

Thoughts?
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/15/2012 09:00:10

Aziridine 
Level 29
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Yeon and RvW,
Would it be somewhat simpler if we did the following:

1. For each of the last ten turns, find the slowest player on each turn.
2. On each turn, the slowest player's team is penalized for every hour over 24 hours that player took to move. No penalty is applied that turn if everyone on both teams moved within 24 hours.
3. Add up the penalties for both teams over the ten turns and take the difference to get the total penalty for the slower team. Let that number be P.
4. If P > 48 hours (the grace period, equal to a team using the entire three days once during the last ten turns), then that team's score in the adjudication is (1 - (P-48)/432)*(income*2 + number of total armies). For the faster team it's simply the unadjusted formula: (income*2 + number of total armies). If P < 48 hours then no penalty is applied to either team.

For example, let's say a game was created on Aug. 1, everyone joined by Aug. 2, and slower team used the full three days for every turn, so that by the end of Aug. 31 exactly ten turns had been played. Then P = 10*48 = 480 so the slower team's score would be divided by half: 1 - (480-48)/864 = 0.5. Is that reasonable?
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/15/2012 09:02:24

Aziridine 
Level 29
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Sorry, screwed up the formula the first time! (It's correct in the example.) #4 should read:

4. If P > 48 hours (the grace period, equal to a team using the entire three days once during the last ten turns), then that team's score in the adjudication is (1 - (P-48)/864)*(income*2 + number of total armies). For the faster team it's simply the unadjusted formula: (income*2 + number of total armies). If P < 48 hours then no penalty is applied to either team.
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/15/2012 09:36:24


dunga • apex 
Level 57
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I am pretty happy that the several guys now are helping me considerably,
I am likeing this discussion, it takes out the weight in my shoulders a little bit.

I am 100% ok with the formula and criteria you guys end up realizing is the best way to do it.
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/15/2012 10:02:59

Yeon 
Level 61
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Aziridine: I think most of what you said is reasonable, but I don't think it fair if slowest player on team A uses 37 hours and slowest player on team B uses 38 hours, and then team B is punished for delaying the game by 14 hours. Don't you think the fair emount would be one hour?
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/15/2012 10:13:40


{RSP} Nike
Level 4
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i'm not part of the nations cup, but i think ( the first post by dunga) is a bad idead

warlight is just a game, and people are meant to have fun, this will be forcing people to play at least once a day, which definitely isn't fair because people like to socialize and do other things on holidays, rather then just sit at home and play wl
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/15/2012 10:19:37

Aziridine 
Level 29
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But let's say team A committed orders 24 hours ago but team B still hasn't moved yet, and now team A has thought things through a little more and wants to change their orders. If they do so I don't think the penalty for the team B should go from 24 hours to 0. What do others think?
Nike, would the 48-hour grace period over the last 10 turns be enough to satisfy your concern? Or how much longer do you think it should be?
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/15/2012 12:50:02

Yeon 
Level 61
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I definitely think the advantage should be reset to zero if they send revised orders, since new orders are indiscernible from revised orders. And I think it'd be very ugly if one team can bank lots of hours over theoretically being one second faster.
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/15/2012 13:14:45

Aziridine 
Level 29
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As I see it we're trying to punish teams that drag games out on purpose. What the other team does while it waits for the slower team shouldn't change how the slower team is punished. Also I think this is slightly easier to calculate than your alternative. But all in all it's a minor point and I'll concede it for the sake of having a rule in place by Monday. So replace my #1 and #2 with your original formula.

Is the rest of my formula acceptable, including the 48-hour grace period? I think the original example I gave was pretty extreme (one team taking 20 days longer than the other team over a 30-day period) which led to the drastic point reduction. If a team uses only 48 hours beyond the grace period (so they used 96 hours or 4 days more than the other team) then the multiplier becomes 1 - (96-48)/864 = 0.944, which seems fair enough to me.
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/15/2012 13:33:06

RvW 
Level 46
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I was also looking at taking the maximum, but unfortunately there's a (solvable, but still) practical problem with it:
WL only lists turns actually taken, so if player A and player B have been playing at "the same speed", until player B suddenly stopped committing orders, the list will look like this:
Player A    Player B
65          36
23          65
24          23
64          24
13          64
 2          13
 4           2
12           4
18          12
So when we process these stats, we'd have to be very careful about which turns match up. And, how do we factor in the time we've been waiting for player B? In the example it could be anything from 18 hours (since it must be longer than player A; the turn starts at the same time for everyone) and 72 hours (since autoboot would've kicked player B at that moment).

Proposal:

  • Add the "we have been waiting for x hours" timer as an extra data point to the playing speeds of all players who have not committed orders for the "current" turn when the round ends (both for fairness and to make it more difficult to forget "lining stuff up").
  • Only look at the most recent eight turns. This is to prevent things from getting messed up (data "going missing") if the last player commits orders between the round ending and someone (Dunga?) having time to look it up and write it down.
  • Of course, the "we have been waiting for x hours" value has to be corrected as well for the amount of time between the round ending and values being checked.
  • This also buys some extra time in case teams disagree; more time before data disappears which is needed to verify the rules were applied correctly.
  • It looks like you already have an idea how to process this "normalized" data further; terribly sorry, don't have time today to look into the details. :(



warlight is just a game, and people are meant to have fun, this will be forcing people to play at least once a day, which definitely isn't fair because people like to socialize and do other things on holidays, rather then just sit at home and play wl
In all fairness, this rule only applies to the Nations Cup; people knew what they were getting into before signing up...
Nations Cup - WARNING SYSTEM: 7/15/2012 20:01:59

Aziridine 
Level 29
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Excellent points RvW - I like all your ideas.
But honestly, the more complicated this gets the more I dread actually doing the adjudications. Are we going to apply this to the elimination rounds as well? If vacations aren't going to be honoured at that point I think it would be better to just play the games out - there will be fewer results to wait on anyway.
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