Also, not sure why we should take an opinion on nationalism from someone named General R.E. Lee... 😉

@General Lee Big brain time.

My post was mostly clarifying definitions of "nation" vs "country." Definitions are determined by historical usage and dictionaries, not my opinion.



Robert E Lee was a great example of a nationalist who knew that his nation was the people of his homeland Virginia. He was loyal to his nation and not a political entity or government. Everyone recognized this was a noble choice, even Lincoln. Even after the war the Northerners worshipped Lee as a moral hero and the NYT published headlines begging him to run for president.

Edited 2/21/2020 06:39:29

@goodgame I disagree. Only since 2015/16 has nationalism become a bad word. Take a look at what Civilization 4's civilopedia had to say on the "Nationalism" technology (Civ 4 came out in 2005):

Well, nationalism has been bad since WW2. Something around that time in world politics showed the danger of the kind of mindset that nationalism supports.

Civ 3 said this btw (Civ 4 is pretty much identical)

Nationalism is the belief that the affairs of the nation are the primary concern of its citizens. A recent political phenomenon (the first major application taking place after the French Revolution), it has nonetheless become the overriding paradigm for modern world politics. It’s important to know that nationalism can come in a variety of forms, some permutations bearing little resemblance to each other. Many early nationalistic leaders preached the superiority of their country over all others. While this type isn’t extinct today (as evidenced by the ethnocentric nationalism in the former Yugoslavia), most promote national determinism. Sanctioned by the United Nations, this is the belief that each nation should be responsible for its own growth and independence.

Civ 5

Nationalism is the policy that emphasizes the importance and uniqueness of the state. The state is the mother and father of the people, and the people love the state. Everybody has the national flag flying from their home, and everybody attends the founding day parade of military personnel and cool hardware. Nationalist states are often quite powerful, as the people work tirelessly for the state's advancement. However, internal criticism of the state may be stifled, which can limit the state's ability to correct itself if it goes off course.

Civ 6 - https://civilization.fandom.com/wiki/Nationalism_(Civ6) (Link as the entry is big)

Has this quote on top:

"It is nationalism which engenders nations, and not the other way around."
–Ernest Gellner

Thanks for a good source pointing out why Nationalism can and often is bad Lee :)

It's alright, Lee, I was joking. Hence the 😉 face. I don't know enough about specific individuals in the American Civil War to have grounds to make a serious statement about that sort of thing. Sorry if I triggered anyone. 😉

https://www.hofstede-insights.com/product/compare-countries/



Also interesting:
https://globeproject.com/study_2004_2007#data


@Lee: The USA are a prime example for immigration as a success story. Apart from that I dont see how answers the question.

Robert E Lee was a great example of a nationalist

@TBest That was fascism... all fascists are nationalist, not all nationalists are fascists. A government should have the interests of its own nation as its primary concern. We've gone too far the other way... (e.g. Justin Trudeau)

the difference? money... UK sells Oxford dictionary, Canada sells maple syrup, America sells dreams

@TBest Well, nationalism has been bad since WW2. Something around that time in world politics showed the danger of the kind of mindset that nationalism supports. ,

lol What are you talking about?

Are you saying Nationalism is bad for everyone? Or that only white people are not allowed to have nationalism and self-determination?

Are you going to condemn Israel for having an immigration policy designed to maintain an ethnic jewish majority?

Are you going to tell Japan they have to import millions of arabs, indians, africans, and mexicans to the point that ethnic Japanese people become a minority in Japan bc WW2 showed us that Japanese nationalism is bad?


You're totally fine with ethnic Koreans having their own country (Korean Nationalism), ethnic Jews having their own country (Jewish Nationalism), Pakistanis having their own country (Pakistani nationalism), black Gambians having their own country (Gambian Nationalism), but you want to dispossess white nations from the countries they built and founded?


Do you really believe every nation should have the right to self determination except white peoples?


Is your "anti -nationalism" really just an expression of anti-white prejudice?

Edited 2/21/2020 20:15:05

Are you saying Nationalism is bad for everyone?

I think an ideal world would not have any countries or nations. We would all just work to help (or I guess at the moment save) the planet and the world prosper. This have nothing to do with the color of people. But the fact that borders are a social construct.

Now, you don't have to tell me that this is incredibly unrealistic. But, yeah point is nationalism = bad, if you ask me.


EDIT: To phrase it another way, I don't think putting your own country over other countries is a good thing. I want an egalitarian society.
EDIT 2: And yes, I am well aware that things get complicated as quite a few countries regularly breaks human rights laws etc. This is just my naive idealistic hope that somehow one day we would all be equal.

Edited 2/21/2020 21:09:41

@tbest

An ideal world would not have humans , IMO

The ideal world was supposed to have humans, but we screwed it up. 😉

The world we live in doesn't have humans ?

Edited 2/21/2020 21:46:43

@Viking no, our world is not ideal.

Is your "anti -nationalism" really just an expression of anti-white prejudice?

the us has guns
the uk has tea
canada has hockey

And Straya has snakes. 😉

and Missouri got weird weather