I am not an animal!

Just some choice quotes from this thread:

I am a veteran of several internet discussions about Creation vs Evolution and related subjects.



Why is it mostly men encouraging/forcing their women into abortion?



Maybe I'm brainwashed, maybe not. Anything you say won't change my opinion. I'm a Christian and will remain one the rest of my life.

Well, at least he sparked some healthy debate.

Marc, what you are referring to is the actual Evolution Theory as adapted to the discovery of Genetics. This was not the subject of this thread due to several reasons. And I just presumed that it is known, so I did not mention it at all. Main reason for this choice is that this scientific explanation is so remote from our every-day-life experience that we have to simply "believe" what science says or - more detailed - what science magazines would deem fit for publishing and what scientists would deem fit to publish in order to further both their careers and their reputation respectively.

Some exception to this double-filtering in favor of Evolution was Michael Behe's "Irreducible Complexity" and just look at the shit-storm he provoked and how bullied his looks were on YouTube discussions. And although his main point, the obvious irreducibility of certain biological mechanisms and systems isn't refuted nor tackled in any way at all, it is deemed refuted by science. Silence is what remains.
And this just because they proved that the molecules of the obviously irreducible system can be found somewhere else and so they told the believing public that irreducibility was refuted without divulging how they came to this bombastic conclusion. In fact they actually circumvented the whole problem totally which leaves you with a gaping mouth after you actually read the articles in detail and you just cannot believe it. Because just finding the parts of a irreducible system somewhere is, of course, a necessary condition, but at that point the actual problem does firstly initiate and arise and that was the point where they stopped fully and claimed victory. Now, Michael Behe's voice was drowned in the chanting of the mantra "EVIDENCE, EVIDENCE, WE GOT IT". And this is an example why I do not choose to talk about stuff that I cannot verify myself, but have to believe THEM for.

Therefore, this thread was about real-life phenomena. And when you start about love or beauty or joy of sex and this stuff - which existence you simply cannot deny and for which you do not need Science to tell you - as being a proof of god, then Evolution - figuratively spoken, mind you - steps out of its hiding place in Genetics and claims the honor for itself. This is a step out of Genetics into another field. And here Evolution can be hunted down, because it has left its undisputed sovereignty and field of worship inside the realm of Science. Figuratively spoken, again, I know. I just like this, because it simplifies some meanings and blows the cover off of some foggy abstract phenomena.

Yes, of course, you might and you will trace back or legitimize these evolutionary explanations of real-day life back to a genetic explanation. Of course, but once you did this you have to suffer that you need such an explanation for all real-life phenomena or else the whole approach is in doubt. And when the whole approach is in doubt and Evolution is chased back into its hiding place in Genetics then doubt follows into that place, as well, like some Erinys of old. At least so goes my reasoning. ;)

Edited 4/19/2014 14:50:56

Now back to the spreading of abortion as something Evolution should answer for, if evolutionary explanation for human psychology, human choices, human feelings and all the stuff is valid at all like it is readily done in this thread already to the fullest for the concept of love and choosing your loved one and so on. Why stop there? So just as you explained so convincingly, love and choosing your loved one happens out of evolutionary strategems beyond human cognition. Nice. Enter abortion. Now what? I am a moron and evolutionary complexity is far above my comprehension? Right...

I stated that small girls would think of their future children. And mind you, small boys would not think of their future children. Again, small girls would not think of killing their future children and small boys would not think of killing their future children neither.

Still, this means that girls got right from young age on a bigger attachment to their children. And call upon Evolution again. It's alright. Just go ahead. And then they got this deep deep relationship to the baby in their womb that no man could and would reach, ever, at all.

Now, an abortion is a shattering of this life-long dream and identity for the grown woman. It is a destruction of life and the dream of life- and this not just for the child. You turned a mother into a killer, who is looking to forget. This is, we are far from Eden.

Enter the leftist who illuminates with luciferous beams this dark path and declares it righteous and persecutes with fiery fury all and everyone who would not consent. Who am I, if I would not resist this diabolical message?

Have you ever read Solzenitschyns GULAG? You would be astonished as I was when you read that the civilians of the Soviet Union had far reaching civil and constitutional rights, despite all the ruling leftist' arbitration in killing. But here comes the leftist "Catch 22". Once you tried to learn about your rights you received an invitation from Secret Police, because why would you want to learn about your rights, if you were not in opposition to the system or so goes leftist reasoning. So the leftist rule is not one of law, but one of terror. You would know better than to evoke your rights or even ask about them.

So you don't have to ride an aeroplane into a skyscraper to bully someone into submission. Leftist got a more subtle way that raises less opposition and still reaches its strategic goal. Just look at Brandon Eich, just recently having to leave his position at Mozilla Corp just because he executed his freedom rights. This is an act of terror just like 9/11, but more subtle. One day you will wake up in an America where all your civil and constitutional rights are still in place and intact, but you would know better than to execute them. Soviet Union Redux.

Well, now you know all my personal enmities and well, this is somehow the subject of this thread to diss all the stuff I hate, because I do think about them and how to properly fight them. Just like I would think of fighting and beating my Warlight opponents. And God gave me skill for it. Both. Praise the Lord. =) Though the latter is no enmity, mind you, but a fun game, of course, with friends. :)

Edited 4/19/2014 14:48:15

Evolution is not a theory of everything. How could a scientific fact answer for abortion? What nonsense is this?

Yes, evolution is scientific fact.

Please stop using this thread as though it is a blog. This is a forum, not your personal soapbox.

Perhaps I did not make myself clear. Actually I did write an answer. Lets sum up the last posts: Hell Bender did explain his understanding of love. Arun did state that love and choosing of your partner is ruled by a hard-wired evolutionary stratagem beyond human sentient cognition. My question simply was, if you explain love that way, how do you explain abortion that way? Why is Evolution not over-riding this decision beyond human sentient cognition? Or in other words: How could that have happened at all in the first place? If we are a result of Evolution hard-wiring winning stratagems into our minds, how could this have happened? And I read Mulva's post stating that you need variety. Of course. But, abortion does not strike me like some new phenomenon or variety, but like a pressure valve for our love of sex in combination with a hatred for the responsibilities that come afterwards. Therefore this is a valid discussion and you might add to it. Because this hatred is hard-wired or isn't it?

And then there are my other three initial thoughts. If you venture to explain love with evolutionary influence on our minds - or sense of beauty as some result of a long-lasting evoltionary process coping with what you randomly got in this world, then how do you explain the pain on break-up with Evolution? That is sure hard-wired as well. And then if you do actually state that this pain means in Evolutionary terms that staying with your woman is a winning strategy, then how do you explain male (and female) promiscuity? And if you venture so far as to state that both are somehow contradictory winning strategies, then how do you explain that we rather jump to the option of killing off the result of our promiscuity? So there we are. Discussion yes/no? I would say it is.

Edited 4/19/2014 15:14:47

And right. Evolution is scientific fact, you say. That dogma let's me start going again. I already explained why Science is a rigged system. I mentioned Michael Behe as an example. No answer from your side? You might add to the discussion.

Then there is this: The scientific frame of explaining this world is naturalistic and materialistic. No other explanations allowed. Isn't that like a monopoly? Sure, admitted, it is the only practicable way, sure. But this effective claim on absolute truth therefore is not valid. Plainly, Evolution is the only practicable explanation in the scientific mindset.
There. Can. Simply. Be. No. Other. Explanation.
And that not due to evidence, but due to arbitrary choice of this scientific frame of allowed explanations. Funny, now, if this frame of explanation is wrong, then the explanation might be flawed. At least, please add a little decency to this statement of Evolution being a scientific fact or it is just simply a religious mantra.

You have seriously misundertsood evolution. It does not deal with day to day human interactions. It does not deal with abortion. It describes how, over millions of years, species change, how species diverge and create new ones, how dinosaurs became birds.

It has absolutely nothing to do with something so short term as you choosing one partner or three, a woman having having an abortion, or explaining love. Evolution does not deal with these things at all.

I made no claim that evolution is absolute truth, or that there can be no other explanation. It is however scientific fact.

What this means is that the scientific evidence is absolutely overwhelming in its support of evolution. You must understand that facts are not as solid as many believe, they do change over time but at this moment evolution is a fact. There are no alternative theories with credible evidence.

I agree with everything Ace Windu said. You cannot dispute anything without evidence; which is exactly what you are doing. Come back with a link containing credible evidence categorically proving Evolution wrong than we can talk. You cannot ONLY come here disputing something by poking holes in some of its evidence.

Sure. I can live with what Ace said. It did sound decent enough now. I agreed about this statement of affairs with Gnull as well and I remember Piggy saying something alike.
So, Evolution Theory is strictly bound to the field of Genetics and "scientific fact" is just desribing the current status concerning this method of gaining knowledge known as science. Nice. Then I can come about with the argument that the beauty of this world and the existence of love is a reminder of this world's divine origin.:P Hehe. But we don't need to start all over. Let's stop it here. Agreed.

Edited 4/19/2014 17:03:21

You can't stop it as soon as you find a loophole to escape. The beauty of our world and (supposed) love can be attributed to genetics; the evidence of which disproves any form of creation (excluding intelligent design I suppose; another loophole imo).

And here we go again. You can't have it both. As long as you just attribute to genetics - and therefore to evolution - what DOES fit and reject the very discussion when this attributing to genetics - and therefore to Evolution - DOES NOT fit, then actually it is not me trying to evade.

And here we got a global phenomenon at our hands that we are killing off millions and millions of our offspring over decades without need and you tell me, there is no relation to evolution. BUT there is some evolutionary over-riding above cognition, that we cannot see or measure, in our choice of partners to get the best possible offspring etc. etc. Isn't that irony? This is like one huge immense FAIL, isn't it? And I do not buy it.

You say, it was even Evolution shaping everything about us, namely the concept of love and beauty. BUT only those stuff where the explanation does fit, right? Where it does not fit, any relation to genetics and therefore Evolution is nonsense. I am not impressed.

But we can stop the discussion here. It is okay. We reached a point.

Just imagine Evolution as some sentient being. All these millions and millions of years of careful filtering and selecting. This oh so patient step-by-step improving of the genetic code. Oh, this utterly strong-minded being in face of so many failures! Then, finally, here we are: Homo sapiens. Cognitive. Self-Aware. D o m i n a t i n g. The pinnacle. Reached. Oh the joy. She even invented love and the concept of beauty for us to make us feel somehow more comfortable and to tickle a wee little bit more offspring out of our bellies. Ain't she thoughtful?
Yea, we got cognition. Yea, we got self-awareness. Still she would say: 'Hmm lets put some backdoor into their minds, for I know better whom to partner with, you know? *Wink, wink, nudge nudge*' And now THIS. Abortion. Millions and millions. No need. This is THE shit. She must be raging in her cage. This must have snapped it.

IF she was a sentient being. Just saying. Of course, there is no relation to Evolution in abortion. We are no result of Evolution. There was no Evolution. Science is a rigged game. No more. You simply cannot disprove Evolution in Science. Never. It is the only explanation they got. There is no other explanation possible. Therefore, it will be defended unto death.

It will be defended until sufficient evidence disproves it, which is unlikely as the evidence we have is pretty damn good. Your ignorance amazes me. Do you truly believe science is some global conspiracy where each and every scientist only publishes data that supports them? Have you considered that the Church (I'm going to assume you're Catholic here) is worse? How many Gospels were/are still hidden by the Vatican? How many times has the Church suppressed the gathering of evidence to disprove its 'theory' (get's inverted commas because it isn't supported by anything) not just by the terrorism of scientists, but by the exact same method you state scientists do today - the concealment of evidence not supporting them.

We want to find the best partner to get the best genes to the offspring. This is evolution; and occurs in all animal life. Abortion is an example of where technology has overtaken our genetic development (which is very slow). Because our social environment is so advanced relative to our genetic makeup (which demands we eat, drink and breed as opposed to earn money, buy commodities, survive within our economic limits etc.), we see that despite us still having that sexual need, for whatever social reason (there are many), the result of that act cannot be sustained, so utilising our technology it can be removed.

This is not complex. I am a very unimpressive person. I see no rational reason that you should dig your heels in such a blind, stubborn way. The unrational reason I can see is that you have been indoctrinated; brought up Christian from a young age to a point where you are unable to break the shackles that hold your mind.

E-mail: Julko...@...
Player-supplied link:
Tagline: Jesus is my Rock, a bonus I keep even in defeat.

lol

I stated that small girls would think of their future children. And mind you, small boys would not think of their future children. Again, small girls would not think of killing their future children and small boys would not think of killing their future children neither.

evidence, evidence, you don't got it.

julkorn, how about this. before the industrial revolution, which obviously hasn't happened to you yet, families would have 10 children, because infant mortality rates were high. most wouldn't survive. this is the case for practically all animals, they overproduce and the better-adapted ones survive. today we have medicine, education, health and safety. (three disgusting leftist concepts.) but in terms of evolution, we have not changed. no "small girl" today wants a nice catholic-sized family of a dozen children. other than those disgusting leftist welfare queen nigger bitches. we know that our kids are almost certain to live to old age, so it is unhelpful to have 10 draining your resources. yet genetically, we have not changed much. the sex drive is still the same. Therefore we make use of the contraception and abortions that are available to us thanks to stupid evil science. since that is easier than resisting our hard-wired urges. any questions?

You have seriously misundertsood evolution. It does not deal with day to day human interactions. It describes how, over millions of years, species change, how species diverge and create new ones, how dinosaurs became birds.

humans have a genetic predisposition to certain behaviours in some cases. in less complex animals, you can attribute all or most behaviour to evolutionary explanations.

your brain is a physical thing and it has a structure that is determined by genetics.

that said, evolution isn't going to be disproved because it hasn't fully explained individual human actions. any more than gravity is disproved because it hasn't explained why the particular chair i'm sitting on isn't floating around. no scientist has ever studied this chair, maybe this is a magical chair that stays on the floor for some reason other than gravity. gravity's a leftist scam, right julkorn?

Haha beat you to it!

When I talked about the fast social development of our World, I did mean the 1800s on too.

Arun, please DO NOT ASSUME he is Catholic, that is small minded of yourself. I may be Catholic, I may be pro-life, but I accept Science, and yes, even Abortion in certain circumstances. Also, please show some damn respect to religion. You may not believe in it, but its the reason you exist. I could care less in your apparent Aiethiesic beliefs, but it deserves more respect than you are giving to it. Understand that while on the internet, Aiethiesm seems to prevail, the real world, your outnumbered and there are more facts baking religion than those backing the lack of a God, any God.

The irrational reason I can see is that you have been indoctrinated; brought up Christian from a young age to a point where you are unable to break the shackles that hold your mind.

This is small minded. Religion has freed the minds of million through the ages, and established morals, that in today's world are vanishing by the day. Why else to we see the degregation in American society? Look through the history books, in every ancient civilization, as the people lost faith in their religion and gained faith in themselves and their technology, they crumbled. The reason being, the morals established by the religion of the people lost value.

i just want to say again how much i love the combination of creationism and anti-choice. those are two shitty tastes that taste twice as shitty together.

we are killing off millions and millions of our offspring

you really are a massive cunt, julkorn. your idiocy becomes less and less amusing to me.

do you think abortion is the first instance in which a life, or prospective life was ended? first of all, you've got spilled seed. periods. every second a woman goes without being pregnant is a slap in the face of reproduction. every sperm is sacred. then you've got the fact that every species produces more offspring than they can handle. even in the shittiest, shittiest situation, humans will reproduce. even if they have aids and they don't have enough food to eat and they live in a war-torn society. they will still have babies that are certain to die. or that will starve the rest of the family because they don't have enough to feed an extra mouth. there's mercy killings and euthanasia. there's murder. there's infanticide. there's matricide and patricide and fratricide. there's suicide. there's wars. huge pointless wars where societies send their children out to die. there's capital punishment. don't know why you seized on abortion as being somehow unprecedented in the history of life.

Understand that while on the internet, Aiethiesm seems to prevail, the real world, your outnumbered

actually, arun is british. religious people are in a minority, as they are in other progressive countries in europe. obviously in backwards hellholes like west virginia and whatever stinking pit julkorn lives in, religion reigns supreme. i don't know what conclusion to draw from that, maybe julkorn can treat us to one of his """"thoughts"""" about it.

Edited 4/19/2014 20:37:15