There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 5/31/2019 06:04:15 |
The Joey
Level 59
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I think a lot of people are misframeing the trans debate here. From the beginning science really wasn't involved in the debate about gender. Pretending it was a scientific debate is doing it an intellectual disservice. It has always been a debate about the definition of the words gender, male, and female, etc. Certain groups of people want to define it one way, others want to define it another. Then the debate would go into how these distinctions define society. But the fields of biology, psychology, and so on do not have the ability, let alone the right to decide the definition of a word in the larger community. That is a decision our society needs to make.
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 5/31/2019 11:19:57 |
Cata Cauda
Level 59
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There are still people who believe that there are more than 2 genders? Its 2019, people, catch up. Even in ancient times they knew that.
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 5/31/2019 12:18:28 |
sound_of_silence
Level 56
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glad that i've initiated some senseless politics talk here, @Rento: Ranting about drumpf and being politically correct increases your chances to get your papers published on good journals, this is not news really. Other than the academia being traditionally left leaning, the journal reviewers are also sternly reminded that how vocal the radical liberals are, you don't wanna mess with them. I actually admire the courage of them a lot, fighting for what they believe, whether I think they're right is another matter.
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 00:08:22 |
Zoe
Level 39
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There are still people who believe that there are more than 2 genders? Its 2019, people, catch up. Even in ancient times they knew that. "There are still people who believe that slavery is immoral? Its 2019, people, catch up. Even in ancient times they knew that it's moral." Appeals to tradition out the ass lmao. Any more fallacious arguments from the transphobes on here?
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 00:27:23 |
The Joey
Level 59
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@Zoe this is a thread devoted to senseless political debates. So how about this, can you explain gender to everyone. The distinction between gender and sex if one exists, and why you believe that someone's gender should or should not be defined by their sex, as it has traditionally been defined?
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 00:54:11 |
Zoe
Level 39
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Sex is just the biological differences between men and women, gender is the cultural and social role of each sex in society. The World Health Organization defines gender as, "Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men, such as norms, roles, and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can be changed." It's very, very simple to understand.
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 02:30:34 |
Cata Cauda
Level 59
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What is my gender if I dont follow my sex's roles, and norms? Or is free thinking not taken into account in "gender science"?
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 03:37:30 |
Zoe
Level 39
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I dunno, gender norms and sex roles are incredibly arbitrary, they change over time and are different in a lot of places. Which is literally my point lol
Edited 6/1/2019 03:37:54
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 04:17:42 |
The Joey
Level 59
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Thank you Zoe! Now you presented one definition of gender. I think it would be a reasonable generalization to say that people who are in support of a binary definition of gender support a definition that basically makes the word "gender" have a perfectly synonymous defintion to the word "sex" (as in biological sex). If you accept this definition as the oppositions defintion of the word "gender." I now challenge you to present your reasoning why the definition you believe is more appropriate?
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 05:58:07 |
Japanball
Level 56
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My take on gender and sex: Sex: The physical aspects of your body that relate to males or females. Most people have entirely one set of physical aspects for one sex, although some people have both, and so are intersex. Gender: The neurological aspect that relates to males or females. The stria terminalis as shown to have two structures: a male structure and a female structure. Most people's structures correlate to their sex, although some people who are sexually male have a female structure, and vice versa. Not many studies have looked at non-binary, which I believe isn't a real thing, and that your gender is either male or female.
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 13:22:34 |
Hazel Wizard
Level 56
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Joey said it better than I would have
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 13:52:10 |
RainB00ts
Level 46
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Sex and gender should ethically be considered the same and binary, because the types of central nervous systems are binary. Men and women have profoundly different central nervous systems, which relate to profoundly different and unalterable world-views and social behavioral patterns. I agree that men and women can have personalities that vary on a bipolar gender spectrum between very masculine and very feminine, but that subjective performative definition of gender actually renders it an impractical form of social categorization. For personalities drift but the individual is always the same entity, because they have the same central nervous system, or I daresay the same soul.
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 13:54:43 |
RainB00ts
Level 46
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The social role is just an extension of the eminent central nervous system.
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 15:37:13 |
Ox
Level 58
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I now challenge you to present your reasoning why the definition you believe is more appropriate? First, because they're two different words and it'd be silly if they meant the exact same thing. Second, because the WHO says so. Third, because there needs to be some word to describe the social and cultural connotations of how male/female someone is, and gender seems to be the commonly accepted word in academia to refer to that.
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 16:02:18 |
Hazel Wizard
Level 56
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Japanball's post is pretty spot on because it's pretty widely accepted by most people (except for I guess those on the right who marginalize transpeople pretty routinely?) that gender refers to socially constructed roles while sex is about biology. Ox also backs up his point pretty well and I love how insightful everyone on this board is, you all have different points to add to the discussion! And again I really liked Joey's point that the debate concerns how we choose to define words, and there are people on different ends of the political debate who choose to define abstract words differently, often over ideological biases. I've seen this happen a lot in far left or right leaning circles. In the end all you get is a meaningless debate over semantics. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/27/Appeal-to-Definition
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 17:54:36 |
Japanball
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Sex and gender should ethically be considered the same and binary, because the types of central nervous systems are binary I agree with the binary part, but why should they be the same? The central nervous system is binary, but does not necessarily align with other characteristics such as genitalia.
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 18:18:48 |
Zoe
Level 39
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Like what Ox touched on, most organizations who deal with this sort of thing hold the same position as us. I'm sorry, but I'll trust the World Health Organization, American Psychological Association, and the World Psychiatric Association over some random Conservatives online any day of the week. https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/05/27/new-health-guidelines-propel-transgender-rights#https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgenderhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5032493/
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There isn't enough senseless politics talk: 6/1/2019 18:19:04 |
Ox
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How many languages do you speak? uh not sure how it's relevant but what I guess you're getting at is how there are a bunch of words which seem to mean the same thing (depressed, despondent, downhearted / huge, humongous, gargantuan) but typically synonyms carry different connotations which makes languages richer because you can attach different meanings to different words that are quite similar. It's quite rare to find 2 words which mean the literal exact same thing and carry the exact same connotations which are used 100% interchangeably.
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