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Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 14:08:03


Vulpes
Level 56
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Fizzer booted me from four games during a legitimate vacation. He thought I was gaming the system.

I have two simple questions: If you know you are going to win, are you gaming the system? And if Fizzer boots me from games I have won on picks, isn't he gaming the system?

What happened during my Season XIII.

I beat everyone I played and played quickly. Then, I became busy with work, and still am busy. The only reason I have energy to write this is because I ate dinner after work, didn't work overtime for the first time in a week, and immediately went to bed (5pm). I just woke up.

I have been too busy and too tired to play 12 WL games as Voodoo. So I went on vacation. And I will remain on vacation until I have time to play 12 games -- wait, 8 games, Fizzer booted me from 4.

Let's look at the four games Fizzer booted me from. (Note: "Boot" here = "Fizzer worked his hocus-pocus programming magic to force me to surrender during my vacation so that it appears that I surrendered." He did this on day 3 or so of a 10 day vacation and without interrupting my vacation. It is as if nothing ever happened. I still have the same number of vacations remaining, I still have the same number of days before this my second vacation ends, and no other games were affected. When Fizzer "booted" me, I was working and not playing WL.)

Game 1 vs Noob. Background: He is a bad player. He played one turn every 3 days. Force join. Picks. First turn. So slow. I played fast. Game: I had sweet locations. Clearly, this game was over on picks. My getting so many leftovers and grabbing Greenland in two turns only confirmed it was over. Why play 20 turns if I have already won? You don't believe me? Watch my games. I destroyed everyone I played. Better picks, better play. But I was booted during my vacation. Thanks Fizzer.

Game 2 vs The WarlightMaster. Background: I watched all his Season XIII games and made picks in his games as if I was playing him behind the fog. I beat him on picks 70% of the time. On the rotating template I have him beat. I am confident I can outplay him, ezpecially if I have him beat on picks. Go look at our game: I knew he had East Russia and West China. I had East Africa countered. I was going to jump toward Hawaii and enter East Russia so I could counter both West China and East Russia at the same time. This game was clearly won on picks. Fizzer booted me.

Game 3 vs Ruthless Bastard. Background: I have never lost a 1v1 vs Ruthless Bastard. Ever. Game: I know he has West Africa. I suspect all of Asia and Europe is mine. I think I had a 70% chance of winning after picks. Now that I see his bad picks, I know my chances of winning were 100%. Another game over at picks. Another game Fizzer booted me from during my vacation.

Game 4 vs Zibik. Background: Like with TWM, I watched his games and picked as if I was playing him. Zibik made many bad picks and moves in his games. I was very confident I would win. He was force joined. I was anxious to play. I knew my work was getting out of control and I would not have time to play later. I asked if he would play real-time. He wasn't around but later said he can't. I tried to play fast before I couldn't. Game: Based on his picking strategy from games I watched and my having the sweet spot in West US, I knew he was in East Russia and probably East China. I thought I had at least a 70% chance of winning after picks. Now that i see his bad picks, I know I would have won. I getmy Russia bonus in two turns, I counter both East Russia and West China. I obvious blockade in East Russia where I expect him so he can't bust my bonus. Logistics allows me to hold my bonus and take West US (he can't bust me in Russia with his troops coming from East China. Easy win. Clearly over on picks. Fizzer booted me.

If these players knew my locations, they might have been tempted to surrender after picks!

My questions:

Is it fair for Fizzer to boot me from games during a legiimate vacation?

Am I really gaming the system if I had won my games on picks and truly believed I was going to win?

Before I went on vacation I knew I wasn't going to be able to finish the season. I asked Fizzer if the tiebreaker was truly so simple as (Income X 2) + Armies. He said yes, "Be sure to play your reinfrocement card!" So, in a game that is a draw, it is acceptable to game the system by playing the reinforcement card and conserving armies to get the win on army count? But, in two games I thought I had a 100% chance of winning and two games I thought I had at least a 70% chance (and in fact was definitely going to win on picks based on the history), it is not acceptable to conserve armies and take the win I gained on picks? This template is so dependent on picks. With those picks, my intel, and my knowledge of the game and how those enemies play, I was not going to lose. Trust me.

If Fizzer can go into the Season and force me to surrender without my being aware of it, I ask that he go into the season and recreate those games as if he never forced me to lose.

He can see the history now. I had those games won on picks. He knows who I am. He has been informed about why I haven't had time to play a dozen games.

I am more shocked that Fizzer would manipulate who wins games than I am that I lost. Is it Fizzer's job to determine the winner of a game, tournament, or season?

Shouldn't he at least ask himself, "Is this person gaming the system in a truly unfair way? Or is he probably/definitely going to win, and knows when games are over and simply does not want to waste time making turns since he has already won?"

Edited 3/14/2014 16:19:09
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 14:17:33


ps 
Level 60
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stalling is bad mmkay?
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 14:35:48


Taishō 
Level 57
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I have been too busy and too tired to play 12 WL games as Voodoo.


Alts have no rights here.
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 14:37:41


Vulpes
Level 56
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My main account has had 0 to 1 active game over the last month. So Voodoo has been my main account for playing games.

Edited 3/14/2014 16:26:37
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 14:38:38


Unreality 
Level 50
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voodoo, what do you think fizzer could do to remedy the situation?

Fizzer may or may not make a mistake, but do u mind to provide a solution of
1. solving the problem related to u
2. preventing the possibility of actually gaming the seasonal ladder?
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 14:38:41

Jehovah 
Level 58
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The only person I'm aware who looks at games and analyses in such detail is GUI.

Mystery solved!
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 14:41:27


TheTypicalSociopathicWLGamer
Level 47
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@Vodoo: game links.

And pls clarify the deeper meaning of

Note: "Boot" here = "Fizzer worked his hocus-pocus programming magic to force me to surrender during my vacation so that it appears that I surrendered."

You were booted DURING a valid vacation ? You were FORCED to surrender? How is that possible?

Edited 3/14/2014 14:42:22
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 14:55:17

6
Level 49
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Without taking sides,

http://wiki.warlight.net/index.php/Rules

"For banning or longer suspensions, players may be automatically surrendered in all of their games to allow the remaining players to continue the game without them if they choose to do so."


These are the games he's referring to:

http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=5750196

http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=5732317

http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=5720733

http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=5714290
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 14:57:06


Vulpes
Level 56
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5714290 3/13/2014 06:00:25
5720733 3/13/2014 06:00:03
5732317 3/13/2014 05:59:32
5750196 3/13/2014 05:58:51
Link.....date...when Fizzer worked his magic

Booted during a vacation = Fizzer entered the system, pulled some levers, turned some gears and caused me to lose. I did not surrender.My vacation was not changed in any way. He manipulated the programming of the game from behind the scenes and decided I deserved to lose. So he made sure I lost.

Forced to surrender = Clunky way of saying what I just wrote.

I don't mnow the proper terminology for "Fizzer wanted me to lose, did his programming hocus-pocus, and clicked a button, with the end result being I lost 4 games within 30 seconds of each other and each game says in the history that I surrendered." I didn't surrender. My vacation did not end. And nobody has my password. Fizzer "surrendered."

Edited 3/14/2014 16:28:02
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 15:01:43


Richard Sharpe 
Level 59
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Don't join games/ladders when you know you won't have the necessary time to complete them. Simple solution.
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 15:04:31


Vulpes
Level 56
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Fizzer may or may not make a mistake, but do u mind to provide a solution of
1. solving the problem related to u
2. preventing the possibility of actually gaming the seasonal ladder?

1. Go back into the system and put my games back the way they were. I did not surrender. I won all those games on picks. I was on vacation.
2. I already sent Fizzer an email. I made suggestions about things he coukd do to make all ladders better, fairer, more competetive. I also suggested ways to have a system that avoids people from gaming the seasonal ladder. Vacations amd tiebreakers need to be reconsidered. I believe I had my games won on picks and deserved to win. And I legitimately needed a vacation. Others use the vacation and bad tiebreaker to manipulate the system when they have only a 50-50 chance of winning. That is worse. I used the system to ensure I win games I had won on picks. I protected my victories.

Edited 3/14/2014 16:30:16
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 15:08:09


Vulpes
Level 56
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Don't join games/ladders when you know you won't have the necessary time to complete them. Simple solution.

I had enough time. TWM. Force join. Zibik and Noob. Force join. 4 to 6 days to get to turn 1. When I realized I didn't have time to play, I quit the ladder. But because 3 of my remaining 4 opponents slow played, I ran out of time to play those games.

I didnt have time to finish the games before the season ends. My work w8ll keep me busy until early April at least.

So I knew I couldnt finish the games for the season.

What were my choices?

1. Surrender? But I won on picks.
2. Make as many turns as possible before I go on vacation as if I will be able to finish the games, and hope my attack/defense luck is better than theirs? That gives me a 50-50 chance of winning. I thought my odds were 100%, 100%, 70%+, 70%+. Given the history, my odds were better than what I estimated. Why should I hope for good luck on coin flips when I knew I won on picks?
3. Do what I did. I won on picks, I deserved the wins. They lost on picks. They deserved a loss more than they deserved a win.

Edited 3/14/2014 15:15:58
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 15:09:27

Widzisz • apex 
Level 60
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I think the reason you were punished is because of what you did in first turn, in some of the games: you just deployed, knowing the formula in case of tiebreaker will give you win. Won on picks or not, someone doing this is not going to win because of his superior position, but because of stalling the games like that.

EDIT: Somehow failed to make that sound neutral. I tried just to explain the reason.

Edited 3/14/2014 15:10:43
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 15:21:36


Vulpes
Level 56
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Fair enough. I respect your opinion. What would you have done in my situation, Widz? You think you have won on picks in four games (including 3 of the top 5 players, who you truly believe you will beat). You know you will be too busy with work and/or life and legitimately require a vacation within a few days. You know you will not be able to finish the season. But you haven't lost a game yet and think you deserve a top ranking based on the quality of your play relative others. Would you...

1. Surrender?
2. Play as many turns as possible before your vacation begins and hope the system gives you the win when the season ends and you are on vacation?
3. Do what I did?

Edited 3/14/2014 15:31:42
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 15:25:17

Widzisz • apex 
Level 60
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I don't know what I would do. I really don't know. I rarely know for sure I won on picks.

In my opinion current settings of the seasonal ladder are not prepared / suitable for situation like this, when you have no time to make a moves, and games are force ended at some point, after just few turns.

EDIT: I think 2 most probably. But maybe because I was never in such situation.

Anyway, one last thing: I don't like what have happened here at all.

I don't like your decision, and I don't like the fact that Fizzer made you surrender. But I can't think of any solution I like.

Edited 3/14/2014 16:10:08
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 15:37:20


Unreality 
Level 50
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voodoo, if fizzer found it hard to restore the games, any other suggestions?
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 16:03:48


Vulpes
Level 56
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1. If Fizzer cant restore the games, I would like an apology. I had those games won on picks. Fizzer decided I should lose because of (a) who I am or (b) what he thought was happening or (c) incomplete information about what was happening. What happened: Krzychu posts on a thread, "Voodoo will win because he took one turn in his games and went on vacation." One hour later Fizzer forces me to surrender. Krzychu's assessment was not the full reality of the situation. Fizzer should not act on hunches.

2. Still procede to improve the ladders. Fizzer should not be in the business of picking winners and losers. The system shoukd do that. The system should not be so easy to manipulate. But if it is, he should be fair. If people can postpone surrendering in games on the 1v1 amd 2v2 ladders so they can get a higher rating and ranking, why cant I get wins in games I had won on picks?

3. Legitimate vacations should not be abused or violated by Fizzer. You doubt I had a legitimate vacation? Contact me. I can give you links to my work's website. It clearly states our work schedule. You dont trust that? I can give you my manager's email or even phone number. You want more evidence? I can send you all the paperwork I have written and checked and read over the last couple weeks. By the time Fizzer could read it all, the season would have ended. I have been crazy busy.

Edited 3/14/2014 16:08:47
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 16:20:13


Krzysztof 
Level 66
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I thought it was some kind of stings of remorse, that make you surrender in less than an hour after i described your strategy in other topic. Apparently it was just Fizzer^^

Edited 3/14/2014 16:20:25
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 16:29:35


Unreality 
Level 50
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is "sorry" an apology?

is a private apology acceptable for u?
if yes, would u keep it as secret?

yes i am finding a way out for fizzer

Edited 3/14/2014 16:29:50
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 16:35:17


Kenny • apex 
Level 59
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Yeah I have to agree with the Fizz on this one. You're on vacation, you know the algorithm in order to win a 'tiebreaker' So you deploy your armies and don't move because you know your opponents will move and thus you will win all 4 of the games without having to actually play them at all. I'm sure if you made a move like you were expanding that Fizzer wouldn't have dropped your games, but you clearly didn't. You made a move like you weren't going to play the game at all. I disagree with that entirely. You can lose any game. Who's to say you wouldn't have bad luck, make a play that your opponent avoids/counter, or make any mistakes? Are you so perfect you can make no mistakes in a win-by-pick scenario?

The best solution was obvious, play your first turn like you intended to win instead of just deploying and going on vacation. It was a total middle finger to your opponents and to the integrity of the seasonal ladder.
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 16:39:38


Beren • apex 
Level 63
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I think Fizzer should probably have warned him, but otherwise I completely agree with Lolowut.
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 16:40:56


Vulpes
Level 56
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I dont need or expect a public apology. I wrote an email to him the moment I noticed what happened. I gave him a day to reply. He didn't. So I made this thread to have a public discussion.

It is worth discussing. I had never before seen Fizzer influence who wins a tournament or get 1st on a ladder. This is uncharted territory.

And he did it without realizing (a) I had my games won on picks and (b) I legitimately need to use vacations until early April.
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 16:43:25

Jehovah 
Level 58
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From a completely neutral point of view, I think voodoo is in the right here actually. Although gaming the system and stalling should be discouraged, it isn't against the rules. From what I read, It seems that fizzed actually abused his admin powers and booted him. The problem is that, there are other people that game the system like this, but the people that suffer from these people don't get their games won like this too, so what fizzer did meant it gave himelf an unfair advantage in the ladders.

This is of course, if fizzer actually did abuse his powers or it was some sort of bug or glitch.

Edited 3/14/2014 16:46:52
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 16:47:24


Vulpes
Level 56
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Lolowut, I was not going to be able to finish the games. Your option (deploy full and make one move) is essentially the same as what I did. You say I gave a middle finger to the ladder. Your option is to give a middle finger to the ladder under the table. Same strategty, probably the same effect. The only difference: Your strategy tries to make it seem better. It is the same thing. I am not going to hide what I am doing. Let the world see it.

My picks and locations were so good that I deserved to win on a tiebreaker (after 1-3 turns) more than I deserved to lose on a coin flip (after 3-5 turns). I am not able to play 12 games at the moment.

Fizzer advised me to "be sure to use the reinforcement card." What if I played to turn 5 in games I had worse picks and worse positioning; then, I played the reinforcement card, conserved my armies, and went on my vacation? When the season ends, I win because the enemy didn't play his card. Is playing 5-6 turns and winning in a game I should lose better than what I ried to do? Winning on picks and losing by Fizzer is certainly not the best result.

My position is: tiebreakers should determine who deserves to win. My picks are superior to theirs. Would they deserve to win on turn 5 or 6 because their attack luck is better than mine? Either way, I needed a vacation to focus on work and family.

Anyway, back to being busy. Maybe I will be able to respond during bathroom breaks or while walking from one place to another.

Edited 3/14/2014 17:16:59
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 16:53:13


Kenny • apex 
Level 59
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No I said expand like you were going to play. Not make 1 move.
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 17:03:45


Vulpes
Level 56
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Ok. Sorry. I misread your ideas.

So if your chances of winning based on picks is 70-100%, you would decide to expand with at least two armies and then take your vacation? You think it is fairer that a coin flip determines the winner after you clearly won the picking stage on a template that is so heavily dependent on picking?

You are a kind person. I am not so kind. I think effort should be rewarded. I worked on making those picks. I earned my advantages. Picks determine more games on that template than play. And when two players are nearly equally matched in skill, picks usually determine the outcome. Trust me, I would have won all four of my games if I didnt need a vacation.

Letting attack luck determine the outcome means I should not have made any attempt at trying to win the picking stage. Instead of making good picks, I could have simply made one pick, be happy with what I got, expand a little, take my vacation, cross my fingers that I win.

Edited 3/14/2014 17:11:39
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 17:14:22


Kenny • apex 
Level 59
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What effort? You could've just as easily lost the game as you thought you won them on picks. I don't care what you think your percentages of winning were, and I don't care if you feel like a coinflip victory would've been unfair to you. You just should've tried to win the game without trying to take some cheap victory with the algorithm. Who knows, maybe you'd have some time cleared during the last day of the season and could've played some of them realtime. TWM and Bastard usually play realtime if you catch them. The problem is apparent probability doesn't matter. What if your mythical 30% chance to lose happened? Are you saying that your opponent doesn't deserve to even play the game out for their apparent 30% chance of winning? Because that's what you did. You took away ANY chances for them to win by abusing an algorithm. All that because you THOUGHT you had a 70-100% chance of victory. I think that's stuck-up bullshit. Just play the damn game. It's a game that you're apparently taking your wins on way too seriously.

And yes, I am kind. When my opponents get booted in 2v2 ladder, I like to make replacement games to determine the real outcome almost everytime, regardless of whether future opponents will do the same with me. It's because I enjoy PLAYING the game. Winning is fun, but if I earn a victory without actually seeing things to the very end I don't feel as joyed as when I earn a victory from start to finish. So if your perspective of the game is that winning is the only fun point, then sure. Game the system. Use your knowledge of the algorithms to secure yourself your 100% win. It's all petty in the end. However, I don't want to hear you complaining when the creator of the site catches you with your pants down and stops your wins before they drastically affect everyone else.
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 17:16:01


{rp} Clavicus Vile 
Level 55
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You were gaming the system. That much is obvious. Fizzer had no right to assume who will win a game, but neither do you. You do not *deserve* to win. You either win or you lose. You stalled the games, you didn't play. It seems pretty cut and dry to me.

You have no right to arrogantly assume you would of won, so playing the match isn't even important.

A better solution: reveal your picks, see if your opponent agrees. They shouldn't be punished for your busy schedule.
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 17:22:55

Jehovah 
Level 58
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And yes, I am kind.


Definition of kind...
Showing sympathy or understanding;

Are you kind, lolo? I think not. Sportsman-like, maybe.

--

I'm surprised at the hate voodoo is getting. Like I said above, stalling or gaming the system is NOT cheating. However, fizzer booting voodoo while he's on vacation gave fizzer an unfair advantage, which IS cheating. Although I'm extremely grateful to fizzer about the time he's spent on this game, I'm more concerned about the abuse of powers rather than unsportsmanlike behavior.

Edited 3/14/2014 17:25:22
Won on picks, booted by Fizzer during a vacation.: 3/14/2014 17:33:58


{rp} Clavicus Vile 
Level 55
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I don't think he's abusing his powers, it was a clear case of abusing the mechanic. I am sure Fizzer would of done it even if his own game was not involved.. And in fact he did.
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