I was told this thread was the right place to discuss potential rule changes.

If that's true, can we get TBest or some panelist to join/moderate the discussion? We won't accomplish anything the current way, with people getting so easily triggered over nothing.

On topic:

Through my eyes, the main issue is potential collaboration of clans or single members in clans. While some may think, it is more likly to happen between clans, which are connected in some way, I would argue, that even a single clan member, which has connections to another clan could potentially collaborate with another clan (for example as he plans to switch clans or dislikes another clan).

So we should focus on potential rules, that it is forbidden to do exactly that and find drastic penalties for those, who are involved in such a collaboration. Presume, that some clans will collaborate for sure, is not a good methode to avoid this, as we could see, that some, which most of the community never expected to cheat, cheated.

Edited 11/24/2018 14:06:06

Edited 11/24/2018 19:21:54

We're not presuming anything you can't stop cheating while it's happening you can make preventative measures and punish those that do

@plat that message was a little long and a little condescending the panel might be slow but I'm sure they're discussing afaik they vote on everything

@krunx not everything is about you and your clans I mean seriously you're the attention whore lmao

@everyone I mean honestly though what would stop a Master from helping apprentice to beat rivals in CL. How could we tell? Also doesn't help when clans like Lynx moves players like Joi back and forth. Also doesn't help when clans are filled with alts from another clan. For example it looks like Discovery is really loyal to FCC....

Edited 11/24/2018 15:18:22

I have no problem with the panel I 100% support them and I'm trying to help by having a stimulating discussion.

"Where exactly in the recent past did players move back and forth from one clan to another for CL. "

Kantos moved down from Lynx to play for 101st in CL8.

Can someone give details of collaborations between any two(related or unrelated) clans in past?

Well this is just plain bull.

So basically you're telling me that based on your notion that masters f***** up the idea of bringing apps to A goes downhill. I understand the notion but on practice asking for such a ban is nothing but authoritarian.

Let me give you my point of view: Been in app for 2 years or so now, love the skype/discord, made friends there. Havent seen puppeteer advice once and even got that denied myself in the past. Theres a culture of play first, discuss with others after.

If masters screwed that up that's their problem not mine, or any app's. But you're basically telling me that if i strive for playing in A i have to tell my friends to f*** off because i would like to go to a "better" clan.

Ive seen mod talking about apprentice once. Why don't you ask him why the clan even exist. In my perspective being suspicious is acceptable but forcing such a clause is way too personal. What is the objective connection?

Same discord server? Please, wz discord servers are full of friends and guests, that alone doesnt sustain anything.

Friendship? Am i not allowed to have friends to play with?

Conflict of interest? Seriously? They wont even tell apps what to do on ladder games, why would they even do that on clan league games? "Oh but you can take away points from other teams..." Have you ever thought that if app gets there, its apps own merit? If you're so worried about puppeting brother clans why didnt you bring up these matters in all the previous editions of clan league? It is a problem only when you're against them? And anyways, who would want to claim a victory on something that they didnt deserve? Im not sure you're aware but your moral superiority is not exclusive to yourself.

There is just no plausible argument for doing this and if for some bizarre reason a paranoid rant becomes an actual rule i'll enjoy my account telling you guys to f*** off until i'm banned because thats how stupid it is.

Having an opinion is fine, pushing it as reality is an entirely different matter

Edited 11/24/2018 16:41:38

you're calling bullshit but you explain there's a culture in masters that's healthy and that is obviously very false...

also if you want to play in A division maybe play for Masters? I heard they're low on filled slots...

there is an obvious conflict of interests because the mother clans funded feeder clans, and built them, so the feeder clans owe the mother clans a lot

nobody's saying fuck off except for you....

Master's screwed up and it doesn't affect any other clans, but it does hurt not only my trust but also the legitimately of their whole clan

I personally don't wish to condemn because Masters are cool people and I think they were judged a little harshly just because they are winners, but seriously, no conflict of interests? It seems like a big risk to allow and hurts the credibility of the league. And once again its not JUST abot Masters/App this is just a good example its about setting a standard and for ALL feeder clans, tito you're almost as bad as krunx hehe

"Kantos moved down from Lynx to play for 101st in CL8"

Were you not in control of the lineup then?

*edit* I was informed of the situation, and while I don't agree it's still right to use that as an example (did you really want them to select blowfly or grick as a sub), I apologize for my ignorance on the matter.

In my time with the clan, players in lynx offered to play for 101st. Our response was always no.



I want a valid point on why it's bad for these clans to play in the same division outside of "They made collude"

All I see is people assuming given the chance, we'd cheat, which is incredibly unfair.

Edited 11/24/2018 17:43:39

It was just an example but youre still telling me

"Hey, this might happen, so lets make that forbidden for everyone, based on the idea that some other group did this thing. Who cares if the action involves people that is yet to pronnounce themselves, who can get there by their own merit."

Ill repeat, i understand being suspicious but pushing that as reality is nothing other than bull. You're not the one being forced to choose friends or clan league so it's easy for you to play the polite guy that has no reason to tell others to f*** off.

you might think it unfair, but thats the reality

What's reality?

That given the chance we'd cheat? If that was the case we'd already be in A this season.

Make a logic point on how its fair and ill agree with you, thats all im saying

it's obvious that the incentive structure gets screwed up if two clans so closely interlinked is in the same division. There is myriads of situations that could give rise to problems.... so in reality it's not a problem of cheating or collusion of any kind

Edited 11/24/2018 17:48:00

How close is too close though? Where do you draw the line. What if a clan has a close relationship with another but is not a "training clan"

Let's say clan A and B are not allied, but they are all good friends and enjoy seeing the other win. Both clans hate clan C though. And then there's clan D which no one has an opinion of, because no one really knows them.

Isn't A and B already messing up the "incentive structure"

its a line that has to be decided since there is obviously no objektive truth about it, even so its still a problem.... and even if you cant remove all thise problems you still can try to remove the worst ones

Edited 11/24/2018 18:06:57

In CL8, I was under the impression that Clan League was a clan event, and that discussing games or doing custom scenarios with clanmates to practice was ok. That's why I did what I did. I wouldn't have done it otherwise.

I belonged to two clans in CL8. I did not think it would be ok to look at the games or give specific advice to my other clan. After all, I wasn't playing for them that season. I see Apprentice the same way.

I have ties to a lot of clans besides my own. The risk exists anywhere. I think most players, including those that have saved from boots or discussed games with clanmates, would not be ok with interfering in the games of another clan.

If there are specific cases of one clan helping or manipulating another, they need to be brought forward. I am not aware of any.

Yeah, it's completely objective and unfair. Your making the assumption we wouldn't try hard enough against our friends, which (at least for me) is quite the opposite.

then why not have two teams from the same clan if they have enough players? well im sorry that i have hurt your feelings, but i would think that anyone will be more likely to throw a game if it was not important for the one clan but was for the other, if they talk with them regularly and are friends with them. That is normal human behavior, and perhaps you are an outlier, but that does not make it any less true

How do I know you won't do so to a clan you prefer, say ONE!, if it keeps Lynx from winning? It's not human nature.