Its all racism ...

Nah, it is more complex than that.

My town literally got shot up by a band of Confederates so it doesn't really make sense to wave that flag here but in other places it does.

It is sad to see a discussion about such an irrelevant topic.

Why is it that people who yearn for the past always pick the biggest losers? Champion the Wehraboos and go 2-for-2

Why cant you guys, like, move on?
We in Austria are more over the Nazi topic 70 years ago than you guys with your much less significant civil war over 1 and a half centuries ago.
Look more at the future and present, instead of the past.

Edited 3/16/2018 23:43:06

Then folk'd start talking of more relevant problems, instead of mostly made-up ones. Which the folk causing the relevant problems would of course not want.

Most people here so far have misinterpreted what I said. I never whined about losing the Civil War. I'm not even talking about the Civil War; granted, I did mention it, but that's not the main topic. The topic is the Confederate flag, which was the battle flag of an army 150 years ago. However, today, it's not the same flag it was then. Today it symbolizes Southern American culture. By waving it, we are merely taking pride in our heritage. Other people all over the planet express their pride in their heritage and homeland in different ways; this is our way. I know you don't like (U.S.) Americans, Cata, and you probably hate us Southerners even more so, but surely you can understand that?

That said, the American Civil War, as unfortunate and long ago as it was, plays a huge role in Southern culture. Just because you don't understand it or even like it doesn't mean we should stop just because you're "over the Nazi topic from 70 years ago." Well, excuse us for having a culture of our own. I didn't know we weren't allowed to do that.

Long live Dixie.

The war wasn't fought to protect states' rights. The war was fought by the North to preserve the Union until 1863, when the fight against slavery was wisely thrown into the pot by a clever Lincoln (who, despite being the least democratic of all U.S. presidents, has my respect as a wartime leader. I'm not sure the North could have won with a lesser man as Chief of State). The blanket term "states' rights" is why the South seceded, and those rights included the big one: slavery. The 'right' that supported the South's economy at all; as well as the North's, for that matter. Sorry if this seems like nitpicky semantics to anyone, but I think this difference matters. Anyway, onto the question posed:

The Confederate flag we see today is not any of the four versions Confederate flag. It is the Confederate Naval jack, commonly mistaken for the Virginian Army's flag, which is a square version of the same design. The flag itself can be and is representative of different things to different people. I don't think the U.S. should be at a point where we are censoring our own history for fear of offending people. Alas, Gettysburg park has taken down ALL flags in order to stay away from controversy (i.e. people protesting en mass because God forbid a Confederate flag is flying on a historical park that preserves the battleground of what I believe to be 1 of 2 game changers in a war that shaped our country into what it is today).

A group of people I don't understand are Northern hicks who fly the Confederate flag. I've even seen a truck with one mounted in its bed. But whatever. I doubt their reasons for flying it, but it is their right to own it and do with it as they wish.

Edited 3/17/2018 05:45:46

Why not fly some genuinely hardcore flags such as Natsoc, Kahanist, Italian fascist, etc as long as it is legal?

^Because those have no value or meaning to the people in question.

^The Confederacy was unfortunately not a fascist state. It could have done much more.

Edited 3/17/2018 06:07:18

I can fly those flags if I want. I can fly any flag I want to. None of it's illegal. Land of the free.

But I don't want to. I would never even touch those flags unless it was to burn them.

Ignoring the historical issues stated at the beginning, lets narrow in on two points I haven't seen yet:

1. So, you pick a flag specifically from a certain period of time where the South engaged in active rebellion against the north to wave as your "Heritage," rather than any other flag (the state flag, the american flag, hell even an old pre-revolution flag).

2. Somewhat related, You're waving about a flag that represented, who was it again, oh right, traitors. That's not patriotism, its barely-restrained separatism.

You're allowed to wave it, but I'm just going to assume you're a nationalist, separatist asshole and/or idiot.

Edited 3/17/2018 19:48:47

Why cant you guys, like, move on?

Fair question. The answer is that how we understand the past colors our understanding of the present. Another answer would be to say that the Civil War was the beginning of a conversation. That conversation has not ended.

The topic is the Confederate flag, which was the battle flag of an army 150 years ago. However, today, it's not the same flag it was then.

That is true too. The Confederate Battle Flag is not the same flag it was during the Civil War. It is also what was added to the flag of the state of Georgia in 1956, and which remained there until 2001 when a new state flag was adopted. In the view of a report which was issued by the State of Georgia the modification of the Georgia flag was in response to an attack on institutionalized segregation along lines of race. The men who changed the flag of Georgia, in 1956, wanted to send a message that segregation would remain in force. A message of unbending pride in what Georgia and the South was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Georgia_%28U.S._state%29

As true as it is that the flag has been about segregation and resentment of the U.S. government's rulings on integration there is another side.

The other side of the coin is that the flag has been a symbol of lighthearted rebelliousness, as in Waylon Jennings.

Waylon Jennings, Good Ol' Boys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qogVHlmFcx0

You're waving about a flag that represented, who was it again, oh right, traitors.

Have you forgotten that this country only exists because of a few very determined traitors who were unhappy with their situation?

So that makes all traitors okay? I guess Robert Hanssen is a really cool guy? Julius and Ethel Rosenberg? Benedict Arnold? They're cool, right?

Oh, wait, they all either died or went to prison, and nobody likes them very much. You all have chosen the LEAST American part of your history, all of four and a half years, and decided THAT's your true heritage. You're allowed to wave it, but I'm just going to assume you're a nationalist, separatist asshole and/or idiot

You all have chosen the LEAST American part of your history, all of four and a half years, and decided THAT's your true heritage.

Yeah. That's because people have always shit on Southerners ever since Southerners have existed. No one has ever liked us. The Civil War was when we finally stood up for ourselves. Success or not, of course we're gonna reminisce on it.

Besides, as backwards as it may seem, some of the most patriotic people are in the South. We love this country--it's just that we would love it more if we were separate. We think this is the greatest country on planet earth, but that doesn't mean we can't do better. That's why a lot of people fly the Confederate flag and the American flag--to pay respect to the country they live in, and the one they hope to someday live in.

I understand how you could think I'm an idiot or an asshole for waving a flag like that, but I'm not the one that chose it as our symbol, and unless you grew up in the South--and I don't mean Houston or Miami, I mean the backcountry, where you'll actually find genuine Southerners, not discount New Yorkers--you couldn't understand both the sentimental and traditional value of the Confederate flag. Even if you did grow up in the South, you don't have to wave it or even take pride in it; but surely you can understand what it means, at least.

And no, it doesn't make all traitors okay. But it doesn't make them all bad, either. Instead of saying "all traitors are good or bad," we should look at the cause they're betraying, and their motives for betraying it. Like Snowden--he's a traitor against the US. But was it for a good reason? I believe so.

The motives behind the Confederacy's betrayal are controversial at best, and I'm sure there were a few higher-ups who wanted to betray the US for less than honorable reasons. But as a whole, I don't believe the South would have sent 750,000+ men to war just to preserve slavery. You must remember, the victory writes the history books, and claiming that the Confederacy seceded to preserve slavery was a surefire way for the Union to make sure people kept hating the South. Not saying that's for sure what happened--but can you really say that's not what happened?

Anyway, that's entirely off subject now; point is, the Confederate flag represents Southern pride, not "Damn I wish blacks were enslaved again."

Edited 3/18/2018 16:28:43

Why pick a flag from a controversial period of rebellion against the government (which some would even argue as betraying the nation even though nations and states are not the same thing)?

It's a valid question.

You have to consider what goes into a symbol that makes it worthy of its status. How the outsider - the person to whom this symbol means nothing - receives it, is more than irrelevant. A great symbol spites the enemy, for its primary aesthetic function is distinction. Relevant to the symbol is also the sum total of all the greatness that made it exceptional throughout history. Men died for that flag, and they were survived by their friends and families who remembered it. Why replace something people literally died for with something sterile, normal, unoffensive, etc.?

The very fact that people are offended by this flag stamps it with nobility. Those who fly it are set apart from those who tear it down.

Opponents of the flag are not concerned with patriotism or national loyalty. The people who want the flag taken down are the same people who unironically believe "when Fascism comes to the US it will be draped in the American flag". They don't like flags or anything that distinguishes between different people. They hate collective histories and symbols because they are immersive reminders to the different cultures that the progressive dream of a completely mixed, culture-less, consumerist human population is a pipe dream or a dystopian nightmare.

What the Confederate flag represents to the Progressives is a group of unapologetic, living, breathing White people who refuse to give up their identity and participate in the new global society. To the Progressives this is a crime worse than slavery and separatism.