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Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/26/2016 06:39:11


Pushover 
Level 59
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Oh yes and one more thing. I would like to discuss the nature of play speed. Obviously I have 3 day boot and vacations enabled, and I see this as a very good thing, since it allows players to stay involved with the league for years without much trouble. However sometimes - either through necessity or personal preference - some players can take a long time to finish their games, and everyone else has to wait on these players for the next season to start.

This thread was created on August 15, and the last of the tournaments began on August 30. So it took about 15 days for the league to start after group creation (by design), and then another 56 days to get to this point, where the majority of the league have completed their games.

In the last thread, I proposed having 3 concurrent games instead of two to speed up the league in cases where a slower player ends up in a game taking many turns (like Metatron vs me and Metatron vs smileyleg), preventing the other pending games from being played. The reception for this was mixed, with enough players claiming they would leave the league that I dropped the idea. However I would like to revisit it.

Another option is to have a deadline before which all games must be completed. If games are not completed by this deadline, then the delaying player (as determined by average turn speed) will automatically lose all his remaining games, so that the league can move on. What do you think of this idea? And what should the deadline be? Based on this season a 60 day deadline seems reasonable, particularly with the possibility of tiebreaker tournaments and promotion or relegation playoffs. If we give 15 days for joining tournaments, 15 days for wrapping up playoffs, and 60 days for the main season of round robin tournaments, this forces each season to take up only 90 days. Or, we can allow for ties to be broken without tiebreakers or playoffs (in cases where the season runs long) and put the cap at 75 days. Or the cap can be shorter, if it's desired to have more than 4 seasons in a year.

We could also leave things the way they are and simply wait for players to finish.

What do you all think?
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/26/2016 06:53:37


Deadman 
Level 64
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I think 60 days is more than reasonable. A seasonal ladder runs for 60 days and you are expected to finish 20 games. Finishing 5 or 6 games in this league seems much easier even with a vacation or two.

Please do not increase the concurrent game count to 3 if possible.

p.s - After what seems like a million years, I'm finally in A. Wohooooo!
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/26/2016 06:58:29


Pushover 
Level 59
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Oh and if this wasn't clear, this season of course I wait for all required games to finish. This is a proposed change for next season.
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/26/2016 06:58:38


master of desaster 
Level 66
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Yes deady we did it finally! Only took me like 6 years of p/r league of always promoting with one restart from scratch ^^

If someone can't complete 6 games in 2 months, he didn't put a reasonable effort in finishing them. They didn't participate on the league in this case and relegate at least.

I sit out one season and had to start from the lowest division. I could have used 70 days of vacation as well indtead...

Edited 10/26/2016 07:08:56
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/26/2016 07:30:03


timon92 
Level 62
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If games are not completed by this deadline, then the delaying player (as determined by average turn speed) will automatically lose all his remaining games
how would you deal with games that weren't even created after 60 days?
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/26/2016 13:02:06


13CHRIS37 
Level 60
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Could also have all games start on day 1? Then any slow players should not effect the group much. It would be a bummer to get the slow player(s)/Staller(s) to open the season and have to rush moves as the deadline approaches.
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/26/2016 13:57:49

Hasdrubal
Level 61
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Maybe that could be too much for some players. 2-3 games per tournament won't kill anybody, 6 can be problem, but with 3 days pace, that is only 2 games a day - which can be burden to some players.
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/27/2016 07:47:45


Pushover 
Level 59
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Could also have all games start on day 1?


6 concurrent games? Recall that 3 concurrent games has a lot of resistance already.

how would you deal with games that weren't even created after 60 days?


This and other questions can be answered with the current season I think, pretending we reached the deadline at the last update. Let me describe what I think should happen first... then maybe rules can be devised afterwards.

In group C2 Metatron is the stalling player, so in all of Metatron's remaining games, including those not started yet, he would take the loss. In his game versus me, his turn speed was 2 days 1 hour to my 15 hour speed. In his game versus smileyleg, his turn speed is also greater, though not as pronounced: 1 day 18 hours vs 1 day 6 hours. But the real tell is that he's the only player with outstanding games. So it's clear who to punish in this scenario.

Group D2 is more interesting: both players are stalling. On paper, PhucilliJerry loses out because he as 3 day 5 hour turn speed compared to Platinum's 16 hours. But both players are on vacation and we are waiting on Platinum for 12 days 15 hours now. Does Platinum really deserve the forced win here? Under my rules he would get it.

Group F1 is another interesting case, because multiple players have stalled this season; it's just a slow group. So as an exercise lets take a look at the average turn speed among current and completed games for each player:

Math Wolf - 20, 28, 28, 31, 17, 18 (avg = 23.7)
Pink - 6, 8, 13, 10, 16, 15 (avg = 11.3)
AWOL Gls AJ - 69, 37, 15, 27, 31 (avg = 35.8)
Hunta - 4, 6, 6, 3, 6, 6 (avg = 5.2)
bobbob000 - 32, 42, 20, 15, 19, 47 (avg = 29.2)
BADA - 43, 7, 40, 72 (booted on picks), 10 (avg = 34.4)
[wolf]japan77 - 28, 39, 25, 33, 32, 25 (avg = 30.3)

You know it's a slow group when Math Wolf is the 5th slowest!! Also note that this is not an average weighted by turns per game, but lets pretend it is, I'm too lazy to do it for real.

So how would this group be resolved? Well, for games not yet assigned, we can either go by the average turn speed or by number of current games. In both measures AJ loses to BADA, so BADA would take the win.

What about games in progress? We could use either overall turn speed or just the turn speed within the game. But either one can lead to some unfair behavior. Hunta is beating Math Wolf on turn speed 5 hours to 18, but the start of this game was actually delayed by other games in the group! Does it make sense for Hunta to take the automatic win?

In summary, slow players acting alone in a group are easy to deal with. But a group with many slow players can negatively affect players who aren't stalling. Not sure how to resolve this, except arbitrarily and unfairly.
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/27/2016 07:57:10


Min34 
Level 63
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Math Wolf - 20, 28, 28, 31, 17, 18 (avg = 23.7)
Pink - 6, 8, 13, 10, 16, 15 (avg = 11.3)
AWOL Gls AJ - 69, 37, 15, 27, 31 (avg = 35.8)
Hunta - 4, 6, 6, 3, 6, 6 (avg = 5.2)
bobbob000 - 32, 42, 20, 15, 19, 47 (avg = 29.2)
BADA - 43, 7, 40, 72 (booted on picks), 10 (avg = 34.4)
[wolf]japan77 - 28, 39, 25, 33, 32, 25 (avg = 30.3)


Math Wolf not the slowest? fake and rigged.
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/27/2016 11:51:09


Andresso
Level 61
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Hey,

can you put me on the waiting list? Eager to join!

thx
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/27/2016 19:13:32

ARand0mPlayer
Level 61
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Maybe you could make all games start at once, but then make the boot time something like 5 or 7 days. This gives players the ability to spread out.
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/27/2016 19:21:19


Ekstone 
Level 55
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@Pushover: have you investigated already the possiblity to use the banking boot times?
25 hours auto boot plus set X days as banking boot times?
If you choose the correct X days, maybe it can be useable :O
And you can further refine it with the + X% to boot time if faster moves.
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/27/2016 19:28:09


Min34 
Level 63
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I'd honestly refrain from using anything else then 3 days boot.
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/27/2016 19:32:26


Ekstone 
Level 55
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I see your standpoint, but if you choose the proper values for banking boot times setting, then for a player with average or faster playing speed will change actually nothing, at the same time possible to prevent the extrem stalling.
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/27/2016 20:06:36


Beren Erchamion 
Level 64
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What about games in progress? We could use either overall turn speed or just the turn speed within the game. But either one can lead to some unfair behavior. Hunta is beating Math Wolf on turn speed 5 hours to 18, but the start of this game was actually delayed by other games in the group! Does it make sense for Hunta to take the automatic win?


This could encourage players to delay surrendering as we approach the cut-off date if they are losing, but can ensure a faster turn speed.
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/28/2016 04:17:52


Pushover 
Level 59
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Yeah, the more I think about edge cases the more I think we have no choice but to wait for the games to complete.

So that leaves three main settings to play with, all of them controversial: (1) Number of games (2) boot settings including banked boot (3) disallowing vacations, perhaps making up for it with banked time. If I want to change the status quo and have more than 4 seasons per year (it would be nice to have 5 or 6!) then it means alienating people who are:

* Slow to join tournaments
* Slow to take turns
* Wary of their game count

I think by far the easiest change to make that would have the most impact is raising the number of concurrent games from 2 to 3.

Edited 10/28/2016 04:21:51
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/28/2016 04:18:49


Pushover 
Level 59
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Season 21 new players:
Master Farah♦ https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4543063534
ViralGoat https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=7841556925
Kaerox https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=5873144373
krunx https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=6328159606
IMMORTAL https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4571217678
Trixie Lulamoon https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=6043451722
[*Voo*] tomn555 https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=279088319
Terek https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=2340628936
Nickovision https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4342915126
ARand0mPlayer https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=7710521647
El professor https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=9740774010
Phaeril https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=7510748853
Ink Splatoon https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=1859062976
Matt431 https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=538068105
{Shredtail2} https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4018123716
.. this guy https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=9373696672
Robert E Lee https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4410807582
Mr. Nobody https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=8763984381
Edge https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=7432342455
Des {TJC} https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=9623657141
zanbato https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=6647564600
Mirage https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4752375309
Rubin https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=8813783184
The Adversary https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=917159838
Alexander The Only One https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=7628414181
J_Dog33340 https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=1947175828
Black.Bishop https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=817245268
Etienne https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=4747057948

Waitlist:
Great Expanse https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=9935521502
Andresso https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=6441410851
Apollo https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=5755701451

Edited 10/30/2016 22:42:20
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/28/2016 04:36:28


Electric_Kitten
Level 58
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Excuse me if I'm being dense, but those are the new joiners this season, correct?

If not, was I supposed to sign up again?
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/28/2016 04:49:12

huddyj 
Level 63
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Don't worry Electric_Kitten, you will be participating next season. Pushover is only listing new players, not those players who are currently participating.
Promotion/Relegation League Season 20: 10/28/2016 08:35:41


Edge
Level 63
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I didn't participate before but i see why this is such a huge problem and i understand that it's difficult for some players to stay in this League when the game count will be raised to 3 games at the same time. So it's really hard to find a good solution.

From my understanding this League is competitive but fun should always be the main reason to participate. I don't get why people are stalling intentionally. I don't see any other reason than fucking all your opponents/the entire League up by stalling.

From my understanding such players doesn't belong to play in this League, if they only want to take the fun from the others.

So i actually like the idea of a 60 day deadline. It shouldn't a deadline to decide who will win the remaning games. It should be a deadline to make sure that everybody who plays longer than the deadline has to fear a ban from the entire league.

Ofc only obvious stallers should get such a ban. U're saying Metatron is obviously stalling this season. If he does it again next season than ban him.
Players who had to take a vacation like Platinum shouldn't get banned, if they didn't stall before their vacation.

Depending on the individual situations players could also get a warning or no punishment at all.

It's a different idea and i'm sure i will get criticism from people because banning would be the hardest punishment someone can get and ofc it's a subjectice view to decide who will get a ban, warning or no punishment at all. People are doing so much work to make concepts like this work and to make sure everybody has fun with it, that i just think people don't deserve to play this league if they are obviously trying to influence the league in a negative way.

There are also slower players participating but i think it should be possible to play 6 games in a time span of 60 days. It works in the Seasonal Ladder too so why shouldn't it work here with fewer games?

So i don't think slower players will be affected by this.
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