focus on making sure such a tragedy on that scale will not happen again.

Understanding how and why it happened, and what lead to it, IS how you make sure that is never happen again.

By the way, no one here said that Hitler did this because he was a christian, i was just responding to the claim that Nazi germany was an atheistic society, wich is completely false.

I don't know why you would dismiss an argument just because it comes from a youtube video, rather than because of its content. Youtube is an incredible ressource.

The argument he makes in the video is against Faith, and how it allows people to be manipulated. The core of the problem is blind faith, not this religion, or that religion.

No you are wrong.

No, I am right. I said, "Classic ad hominem. It's the argument that matters, not the source of the argument."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attack on an argument made by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, rather than attacking the argument directly. When used inappropriately, it is a logical fallacy in which a claim or argument is dismissed on the basis of some irrelevant fact or supposition about the author or the person being criticized.[2] Ad hominem reasoning is not always fallacious, for example, when it relates to the credibility of statements of fact or when used in certain kinds of moral and practical reasoning.[3]

Fallacious ad hominem reasoning is normally categorized as an informal fallacy,[4][5][6] more precisely as a genetic fallacy, a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance.

You have attempted to dismiss the argument made in the Darkmatter video based on an irrelevant characteristic, it being a Youtube video. You have not addressed the actual argument at all. That is classic ad hominem.

Exactly. In fact, The source in many cases is the most important thing that matters.

But not in the case of a logical argument. For logical arguments, the only thing that matters are its validity and its soundness:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Validity

In logic, an argument is valid if and only if it takes a form that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion nevertheless to be false.[1] It is not required that a valid argument have premises that are actually true,[2] but to have premises that, if they were true, would guarantee the truth of the argument's conclusion. A formula is valid if and only if it is true under every interpretation, and an argument form (or schema) is valid if and only if every argument of that logical form is valid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundness#Of_arguments

An argument is sound if and only if

1. The argument is valid, and 2. All of its premises are true.

For instance,

All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

The argument is valid (because the conclusion is true based on the premises, that is, that the conclusion follows the premises) and since the premises are in fact true, the argument is sound.

The following argument is valid but not sound:

All organisms with wings can fly.
Penguins have wings.
Therefore, penguins can fly.

Since the first premise is actually false, the argument, though valid, is not sound.

---

"It's the argument that matters, not the source of the argument."


^ That's like saying Its the gun that matters, not where I got it

Here you are committing a fallacy of false analogy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_analogy#False_analogy):

A false analogy is a faulty instance of the argument from analogy.

An argument from analogy is weakened if it is inadequate in any of the above respects. The term "false analogy" comes from the philosopher John Stuart Mill, who was one of the first individuals to engage in a detailed examination of analogical reasoning.[2] One of Mill's examples involved an inference that some person is lazy from the observation that his or her sibling is lazy. According to Mill, sharing parents is not all that relevant to the property of laziness.[2]

A logical argument is not like a gun-related criminal offences in the sense that logical arguments stand or fall on the basis of their validity and soundness alone. Gun-related criminal offenses are inherently tied to a person, namely the accused. Logical arguments are not inherently tied to any person; they can be made by anyone and they still stand or fall only depending on their validity and soundness.

This is basic logic 101. If you don't know enough about a subject, shouldn't you refrain from making bold claims about it, without learning about it first? I seem to recall you saying something to that effect. Here's an intro, titled "Logic 101 (#1): Introduction": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBjAyrX7wms

[Actually, that looks like a really good course. Here's the complete playlist: ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBjAyrX7wms&list=PLKI1h_nAkaQq5MDWlKXu0jeZmLDt-51on]

Edited 2/5/2016 19:27:40

... Just when you thought that this thread would die.....

You have attempted to dismiss the argument made in the Darkmatter video based on an irrelevant characteristic, it being a Youtube video. You have not addressed the actual argument at all. That is classic ad hominem.

Now you've made the fallacy with an ad hominem. Look at what I said again. I wrote "Youtube video? Nice source."

I in no way impugned your character or the video or the argument made by the video. You do realize the meaning of words right?

Also if you'd read my next line "In truth Hitler believed in junk science (aka Eugenics)" you would have seen I was responding directly to your question "Did Hitler's Religious Beliefs Matter?". Stop being a cry baby dude.

Now you've made the fallacy with an ad hominem. Look at what I said again. I wrote "Youtube video? Nice source."

I in no way impugned your character or the video or the argument made by the video. You do realize the meaning of words right?

Fine. Then you simply made an irrelevant statement. That still leaves the argument unaddressed. If you're fine with that, so be it.

Also if you'd read my next line "In truth Hitler believed in junk science (aka Eugenics)" you would have seen I was responding directly to your question "Did Hitler's Religious Beliefs Matter?". Stop being a cry baby dude.

"Did Hitler's Religious Beliefs Matter?" is the title of the video. If you're going to address the question, then you should address the video, where that question is answered.

The statement of the video can be found at about minute 3:

"I'm not saying Christianity caused the horrors of World War 2 [however]
It faciliated the cause:
- blind nationalism
- harsh fascism
- hateful bigotry
- reckless propaganda
- unfetteered greed"

Let me take a look at those points from the standpoint of a bible reader:

I'm not saying Christianity caused the horrors of World War 2
Historically it makes no sense to associate Hitler with any form of practiced Christianity. If someone would falsely claim that Hitler had his ideas from the bible then I would feel attacked however if people falsely state that Hitler was a devoted Catholic then I don't care at all.

blind nationalism / harsh fascism
This is completely contrary to Christianity. Some might wonder why God commanded the Jews in the Old Testament to be militaristic and in the New Testament the opposite for Christians. The reason is that the Jewish hope is earthly and there they had human enemies preventing them from taking their land. The Christian hope however is heavenly. There is no order for Christians to make this world a better place and believing Christians could do so is contrary to the biblical prophecy. There are probably way more fundamentalist Christian believers than there are fundamentalist muslim believers however the reason they don't found their counterpart to the Islamic State isn't that they don't take the bible seriously but that this kind of thinking doesn't have any part in Christianity. There are different fundamentalist Christian camps claiming to be solely bible based however none of those teach any violence against unbelievers (also not secretly in hidden brochures for insiders under the counter).

hateful bigotry
Happens when you follow a perverted form of Christianity. True Christians know that Jesus did all the work for their salvation on the cross and all they have to do in return is... nothing.

reckless propaganda
I don't really understand this point.

unfetteered greed
See my response to "blind nationalism / harsh fascism". The angle of Christianity is towards heaven and not towards this earth.

Edited 2/5/2016 19:37:23

No I shouldn't have to watch a video to hear your argument on the question "Did Hitler's Religious Beliefs Matter". If you want to answer the question yourself then actually answer it...don't cut corners and just link a video.

By the way, no one here said that Hitler did this because he was a christian, i was just responding to the claim that Nazi germany was an atheistic society, wich is completely false.

All of the basis for this is stuff that hitler said; Again, you can't rely on the man, he was out of his mind.

Instead, you have to take into account the oppression of religion that happened in Nazi Germany. Basically every religious group you can think of was oppressed in nazi germany, be it:

Catholics
Jews
Protestants
Jehovah's Witnesses
Bahá'í's
etc.

The Third reich believed in loyalty to state. They hated the idea of a non-governmental force having an influence in the lives of aryans, especially one the ORIGINATED IN JUDAISM. It baffles me how anyone can make the claim that the nazis were christians, they literally murdered millions of jews. How does it make sense that they would ahdhere to a religion rooted in judaic values, one that proclaims that the savior of the world is a jew?

All of the important biblical figures are jews, be it literally everyone in the old testament, Jesus's disciples, Paul of tarsus, or even jesus himself. Your idea frankly makes no sense, and to be honest I kind of agree with the conservative that you may just be googling something and copying and pasting the results here.

Edited 2/5/2016 19:57:51

200th post

Please shut the fuck up promptly.

The Third reich believed in loyalty to state. They hated the idea of a non-governmental force having an influence in the lives of aryans

True

How does it make sense that they would ahdhere to a religion rooted in judaic values, one that proclaims that the savior of the world is a jew?[...]Your idea frankly makes no sense, and to be honest I kind of agree with the conservative that you may just be googling something and copying and pasting the results here.

It is not my idea, it is a historical fact that the Church spread anti-semitic ideas for centuries in Europe, and with good theological reason. I use quotes and facts, i don't go look for "anti-christian arguments" on google/youtube. I don't have anything against "christians" in general, the term "christian" doesn't mean anything anyway, there is a variety of beliefs and doctrines in the christian world and this thread is a good example of it. I *don't* focus on "christians", instead i focus on the Bible, its ideology, and what it leads some christians to believe.

In fact, lets illustrate my claims with a few quotes from this perfect holy scripture:

"22 “What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called the Messiah?” Pilate asked.

They all answered, “Crucify him!”

23 “Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.

But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

24 When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

25 All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”

--> Matthew 27: The Bible portrays the Jews claiming themsleves with pride to be responsible for Jesus' crucifiction, not only that, but their descendant are also responsible. But hey, the jews "said" it themselves so...
This is the kind of rethoric still promoted by christian fundamentalists like Norman and others (Kent Hovind, Steve Anderson, etc)

The thing is, some christians even think that this is really how it happened, that this is all true to the letter, that the Jews and their children are responsible for the murder of their beloved prophet Jesus. If you believe the Bible "From cover to cover" as the expression goes, this is the kind of wicked belief you end up having

There are litteraly hundreds of passages in the New Testament that were used to fuel anti-semitism. Here is a few other Bible quotes spewing hatred

Atc 7: 51,52

“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”

Titus 1 : 10,16 -> patronizing Jews again

10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”[c] 13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Revelation 3: 9 -> again with the accusation that Jews are secretly demon-worshippers, and shall fall at christians' feet

I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

edit:
source: https://www.biblegateway.com/

All of these verses have been used by the church to fuel hatred.

We can argue the theological validity of it, but it doesn't erase the fact that the Bible has been, once more, used to spread wicked ideology. And some people still have their head so buried into the Bible that they can't even see it. Same with homosexuality, they think that as long as they have scripture with them, they can patronize people and discriminate, and they think they are doing good.

In fact, you even have christian fundamentalists today that support zionism and Jewish settlers in Israel, because they hope that if all the Jews went back to Israel and rebuild their Temple, it will bring the End Times, in wich one third of the Jews will be converted to Christianity and the rest will be slaughtered and then eternally condemned to Hell.

Here is the kind of conversation you end up having if you litteraly believe everything the Bible say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_BA-KyefPQ

Edited 2/6/2016 00:28:15

Nice try, but your post is irrelevant to our conversation since the Bible was banned in Nazi Germany...

Nice dodge, exept I'm not talking about Nazi Germany, i'm talking the anti-semite propaganda the Church spread for centuries in europe, that prepared the groundgame for Hitler to succeed in his enterprise.

Edited 2/5/2016 23:39:20

I'm not sure why you're talking about that; We were having a nice little discussion about the Nazis before you were in fact the one to "dodge" the subject.

You trying to Divert the subject by completely ignoring most of my post and instead trying to highlight "all these evil, terrible things the new testament says" seems like a copout.

Edited 2/5/2016 23:53:47

i'm talking the anti-semite propaganda the Church spread for centuries in europe, that prepared the groundgame for Hitler to succeed in his enterprise.

But that's like blaming the Rashidun Caliphate for creating, establishing, and popularizing the political notion of an Islamic Caliphate that allowed ISIS to resurrect the idea about 1400 years later.

I'm not sure why you're talking about that; We were having a nice little discussion about the Nazis before you were in fact the one to "dodge" the subject.

Wrong again, go to page 7, the conversation started with me asking Norman this:
"Do you think that this rethoric,* the blaming of all the Jews for the death of Jesus * wich was professed for centuries in Europe, had a role in preparing the groundwork for the Holocaust? Do you think that it can be viewed as bible-inspired antisemitism, or is it harmless and happen to be a Holy Truth?"

To wich he responded...but the Third Reich was an atheist society!

But that's like blaming the Rashidun Caliphate for creating, establishing, and popularizing the political notion of an Islamic Caliphate that allowed ISIS to resurrect the idea about 1400 years later.

Of course not, that's a false equivalent.
The right analogy would be to blame the spread of wahhabism/salafism by countries like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, wich financed mosques and imams to spread the ideology everywhere in the world, and of course call out the Quran for being the Holy Book on wich the ideology is based.

Always the same pattern. Wicked ideology rooted in man made so-called Holy Books

How the hell does a thread about accepting differences and respecting one another devolve into a argument so quickly?

The purpose of the thread was to start a conversation to argue over. Arguments are a good thing, that's how progress work

This is a video game forum, there is little to no intellectual progress made regardless of these arguements. Peace loving kumbya shit is much more beneficial.