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Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/19/2015 20:30:41


Darth Darth Binks
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Over half of the US states have publically stated that they will refuse to have anything to do with the migrants. The US has promised to take in 10,000 - 15,000 refugees from Syria.

Reasons to take them in:

-Help Europe, yo! European countries are taking them; why shouldn't the US?

-The US is a nation of immigrants. It is hypocritical of the US to not take them when they have in the past, and shows a sense of Islamophobia.

-Muslim does not equal Terrorist.

-Where's your humanity!? These people are running away from the conflict. Why do you think they want to do you harm?

-It's only 10,000 people, come on, man.

-They are supposed to be fixing the vetting process.

- Obama ~ "Are you scared of widows and three-year old orphans?"

Reasons to NOT take them in:

-If Europe can't help itself, then that shows we shouldn't place ourselves in their situation.

-The US is, indeed, a nation of immigrants, but not of refugees from a state sponsor of terrorism, the very first country added on the list.

-Not all Muslims are terrorists, but with the crap-tier vetting system, there is no way to pick out the bad apples. We already have extremist sympathizers in our borders.

-These people are running from conflict. A conflict we had a part in, and not for the better. It is guaranteed that a few of them are actually hostile towards the US, because we don't exactly have a good track record with Syria. Tensions will be high, and eventually, the rope would snap.

-10,000 is still a big number. It doesn't change the fact that we are taking a risk.

-The vetting process for Syrians will suck indefinitely. They can only be checked with the information we have, and since Syria and the US haven't cooperated with each other for decades, and since the country is in turmoil, it does not suffice. There is too great a risk.

-Before the Sochi Olympics, there was a new sensation sweeping the Russian nation called, "Black Widows." These are women who have sworn a life of revenge for their (Muslim) husbands being killed. The US has some Syrian blood on its hands through its actions, and lack thereof.

-There are young children being trained by ISIS as we type.

-There is too great a risk that people who are hostile towards the US are being let in, and as a nation, your own people should come first.

-France took in refugees, and now it has closed borders after being attacked at its capital. At least two of the terrorists have been confirmed to have been foreign-born.

-One of the passports used a name that matches that of another that was detained in Turkey. Even more evidence that we don't know who we would be letting in.

Edited 11/19/2015 22:36:55
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/19/2015 21:17:22


The Man Who'd Buy Spain
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I forgot to mention:

Add your own points, everyone. Has a nice, civil discussion.
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/19/2015 21:37:21


Tiny Koala
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The Paris terrorists were not refugees. For whatever reason, the U.S. has had less of a problem with home-grown radical Islamic terrorism than Europe has had, in spite of having a large Muslim population.

We should take more than 10k Syrian refugees.
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/19/2015 21:37:40


Tiny Koala
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Also, asking that guy for a civil discussion is a waste of pixels.
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/19/2015 21:44:50


Angry Panda
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truncate the muslim community is rather small in the US truth be told. Nothing compared to Europe. In France surveys are hard to make since ethnic/religious datas are forbidden by the French Law, in France we do not take any importance for ethnicity or religion such as in the US (it is in our very principle about men being equal, and should not be penalized about their origins), that's why datas are unknown, but some scholars suggest there would be at least 15-20% of Muslims in France.
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/19/2015 21:47:47


Angry Panda
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I actually believe Islam could already be the first religion of France, seeing the number of atheist/non religious people.
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/19/2015 22:37:29


Darth Darth Binks
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Thank you, Truncate, for catching that.
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/19/2015 22:44:44


Tiny Koala
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Angry Panda - you're right. According to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

something like 7.5% of French people are Muslim, vs. less than 1% in the U.S. The total number is less than twice as many, though, since the U.S. is a much more populous country.


Edit: I would have guessed much more than 1% for the U.S., just because the percentage is much higher in the places I've lived.

Edited 11/19/2015 22:47:20
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/19/2015 23:03:13


Empire of Kilos
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Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/19/2015 23:26:35


Tiny Koala
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I did click on that link, but am not interested in watching it - from what I saw, it shows video of what is claimed to be refugees behaving badly in Hungary, with the claim that these incidents were ignored by the news media. I guess there are a million things that happen every day that people don't pay attention to, for whatever reason.

I live in Budapest at the moment, and was here when there were many refugees camped out at Keleti station. It was crowded, and the facilities were inadequate, so it smelled very bad and people got sick. Police wouldn't let the refugees on the trains, whether or not they had valid tickets. A friend of mine had to step over people to get on the metro to get to work.

One night, I think after Hungary lost a soccer game to Romania, but I'm not sure, there were a bunch of drunk Hungarian guys in black shirts wandering around, sirens everywhere, and police in riot gear. I guess the drunk guys wanted to beat up the refugees, but the police wouldn't let them, but that's mostly speculation on my part. Sirens, drunk and menacing Hungarian men going to Keleti, police in riot gear - those I saw in person. Whatever happened, seemed bigger than the incidents shown in the video, but wasn't picked up on by the international media (for whatever reason).

Eventually, the refugees were bussed on to Austria. They had an unpleasant experience here, but overall didn't cause lasting or severe problems for Hungarians.

Edited 11/19/2015 23:39:11
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/19/2015 23:30:04


Angry Panda
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15% out of 70 million is something like 8-9 million of Muslims in France
1% out of 300 million is 3 million in the US.

So yeah even in term of numbers, Muslims are way less in the US than in France alone, so about Europe with 500 million inhabitants the number of Muslims would be way higher.

Edited 11/19/2015 23:30:49
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/19/2015 23:34:29


Tiny Koala
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I was going from the link I posted, which cites the Pew report as saying that France has 4.7 million Muslims, vs. 2.6 million in the U.S. Who knows if that's an accurate estimate, though - your guess might be better.

Whatever the exact numbers, your basic point is definitely right: there are many more Muslims in Europe than in the U.S., so even if the rate of dangerous terrorists in the domestic Muslim population is the same, it's no surprise that there are more problems with domestic Islamic terrorism in Europe.

Edited 11/19/2015 23:35:20
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/19/2015 23:43:26


Angry Panda
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well this is rather difficult to estimate as I told you. As many Muslims (I know personally) are also atheists. So yeah, there were never any official surveys nor estimations nor accurate counting of people based on their ethnicity and religion, and I think this is rather good. I have nothing against Muslims, and they can one day be more than Christians in France, I would not care that much, as long as they accept and respect our secular state, and do not put in danger our freedom and be tolerant to each other.
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 00:57:50


Жұқтыру
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Why do you list the weakest, almost strawman points for and better built and more points against?
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 01:25:19


berdan131
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Angry Panda,

(I had to)

"As many Muslims (I know personally) are also atheists." is like saying
"Many terrorists are also anti-terrorists"
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 02:37:33


GeneralPE
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I suggest everyone here go to https://www.numbersusa.org/ to see how accetping even 10000 is a huge mistake. We would be better off spending the resources on finishing the war and restoring order. History has shown dictators like Assad/Gaddafi/Mubarak/Hussein are the best way to do this. Also, the risk of an attack like in Paris is not worth it. If an equivalent attack occurred, 500 ish would be killed/wounded, or 1/20 of the # of 'refugees' allowed in. It may sound heartless, but I would rather have them stay in Syria and maybe 1000 die than have them come and 500 AMERICANS are killed/wounded. Of course, this is only acceptable if we try to solve the root problem.
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 02:42:12


GeneralPE
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"The US is a nation of immigrants. It is hypocritical of the US to not take them when they have in the past, and shows a sense of Islamophobia"
1. How is it 'Islamophobic' to be worried about terror attacks, as nearly every terrors=ist attack in recent history has been committed in the name of Allah?\
2. https://www.numbersusa.org/ has youtube vidoes showing how contrary to popular belief, immigration has never been the major population increase atalyst until recently, even in the immigrant-happy early 20th century.
3. If they came to us and applied correctly, ok. We have never TRIED to bring people here
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 02:42:46


The Hysterical Koala
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generalpe, i feel there are a number of things you miscalculate. and not just in terms of math.

there are many incidents on U.S. soil that could easily be called terrorism, if the perpetrators were muslim. Except they are not muslim, so they do not get the terrorism label. which is quite unfair, considering.

Edited 11/20/2015 02:44:02
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 02:45:16


Eklipse
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Why do you list the weakest, almost strawman points for and better built and more points against?

It looked to be a pretty objective list to me. If you think the points in support are weaker than you'll have to analyze for yourself why that seems to be.

As many Muslims (I know personally) are also atheists.

Forgive me, but aren't those mutually exclusive? Unless Muslims and Christians are now being counted as ethnicity along with Jewish.
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 03:01:38


TBest 
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"Forgive me, but aren't those mutually exclusive? Unless Muslims and Christians are now being counted as ethnicity along with Jewish."

They (Muslims and Christians) are in some cases. For instance majority of Norwegians can be considered Christians, but also irreligious. That is being Christen refers to what culture you are from, not your belief regarding god(s).

{~75% are part of the church, while only 22% believe there is a god}
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Norway

Also guns kills more people then immigrants/refugees, so why allow the former but not the latter? (I am sure you all know what thread I am hinting at)

Edited 11/20/2015 03:02:49
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 03:06:36


The Man Who'd Buy Spain
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Also guns kills more people then immigrants/refugees, so why allow the former but not the latter? (I am sure you all know what thread I am hinting at)

Guns don't kill jack. they are used to kill.

Xapy, you can add points for the pros, if you want.
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 03:25:25


TBest 
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I am not particularly interested into a an argument on whether guns are used to kill, or leads to murder simply by their nature of being easy to fire.

Either way, taking away guns (like assault rifles, high cap mag and other WAR equipment) will result in fewer lives lost. Wouldn't you love to live in a place where you can trust the Police, and they do not need to carry guns.

Please let get rid of legal army guns on the street (by both civilians and police) then we can discuss the other guns later.

Also if the gun provides safety argument is true, clearly US should welcome refugees. Were else could they be more safe?

Edited 11/20/2015 03:25:43
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 03:38:07


Darth Darth Binks
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Ah, but it's not true. The pro-gun laws were established to protect the people from their government, as well as from invading nations, should the military need some help. There is nothing to protect the people from themselves, though, which is unfortunate. But, the US can't turn back now.

Back to the topic, a gun can't protect you from something you don't know is there. Any terrorist that is integrated into the migrants don't show it until the last moments, when they pull out a gun, or just blow themselves up.
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 04:17:56


Genghis 
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Man, this thread might not even last long enough for us to spam it on Genghis day.
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 05:11:50


Жұқтыру
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I've said my words about this some times, but for now, here are some improvements.

I think this should be this:

-Help Europe, yo! European countries are taking them; why shouldn't the US?
-> Keep solidarity with the rest of NATO, and ease off the load on the European allies. America has much more modern experience with mass scale migration.

-The US is a nation of immigrants. It is hypocritical of the US to not take them when they have in the past, and shows a sense of Islamophobia.
-> Just remove this totally, this is not really a valid argument. It's ironic, but it's no argument.

+No longer letting folk in statistically likely to murder folk, not solely based on national origin. The biggest "terrorist" attack on American land was September 11 attacks, which killed 2,000. ~15,000 die each year from murder.

-Where's your humanity!? These people are running away from the conflict. Why do you think they want to do you harm?
-> Should a clinic turn 10,000 away folk (over some years) who are afflicted with illness A, on the chance 1 in 500,000 that they actually do not have illness A, but are conquering their fears of physicians?

-It's only 10,000 people, come on, man.
-> It's just about 0.003% current America population, or 355 times a smaller problem than the murderous Puerto Ricans.

-They are supposed to be fixing the vetting process.
-> How does this even mean?

- Obama ~ "Are you scared of widows and three-year old orphans?"
-> Another invalid argument
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 06:27:48


Empire of Kilos
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Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 06:52:32


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
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The only reason why France, Central European and Balkan states accepted migrants in the first place is because of the failed "European Experiment" which is controlled by the US through it's spiked tentacles of ideological and cultural imperialism thereby putting pressure on states and causing them to put the interests of the US foreign policy over the interests of themselves.

France doesn't have a foreign policy. When's the last time they opposed the US on a single issue. The UK only just got away with cosying-up to China a couple months ago. France is to the US what Kazakhstan is to Russia. America no.2.

France is the most colonised state in the world. It's culture, apart from it's horrible language and tendencies to eat the most disgusting things, has beem completely eroded away and replaced by a pseudo-American culture. Any nation that resists the methodical erosion of it's culture by imperial America is "dealt with". We only ever see what 'Murica wants us to see. We only hear what 'Murica wants us to hear. Anyone who tries to explain anything in a manner opposed to the mainstream media's story is dubbed as a "conspiracy theorist nut".

This colonisation has been going on since post-WW2. This was how they did it:
Step 1- End all European superpowers and make them minions of mother-Murica.
Step 2- Oops! Russians have got the same idea as us! Best put a wall between us and them somewhere.
Step 3- Erode all culture on our side of the wall.
Step 4- Break down the wall by enticing populations on the other side to violence.
Step 5- Erode, nation by nation, every culture on the other side of the wall until we erode the culture of mother-Russia herself. (This was going to plan until Putin arrived.)

The only way we can end this tragedy of the human race is to use the same strategy the US uses against others to it's disadvantage. The people of Texas are being oppressed **wink**. The democratic will of Alaska is being repressed to favour East Coast states **wink**. These peoples must throw off their reigns of oppression and fight for independence. **wink**wink**wink**
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 07:07:55


Жұқтыру
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While I'm at it, I'll talk to some other points.

-If Europe can't help itself, then that shows we shouldn't place ourselves in their situation.


Shouldn't is a strong word. Don't have to is more suitable, and America doesn't have to do anything, really. Most European governments willingly placed themselves in a very helper role, notably Germany and Holland. It's like willingly doing a maths problem: it's complicated, it's tedious, but you get smarter from doing it and it's choice.

It's part of helping an international problem, this is a rather selfish outlook on it, I think.

-The US is, indeed, a nation of immigrants, but not of refugees from a state sponsor of terrorism, the very first country added on the list.


Are you kidding me? America is a state sponsor of terrorism. In Libya, in Mexico, in Sudan, and all this: ongoing! They've, at one point or other (in the last 15 years) funded each side in the Syrian Civil War: the Syrian government, various "freedom fighters", other "terrorists", and Kurdistan. Have you not seen that picture of some American parlaiment members with their "friends", who fight against the tyrannic government in order to establish a fair, Islamic State?

This is a load of hypocrisy.

-Not all Muslims are terrorists, but with the crap-tier vetting system, there is no way to pick out the bad apples. We already have extremist sympathizers in our borders.


Statistic analysis, I don't really know what the "vetting" system is. There are many ways to pick out "bad apples", though. F.E. put secret police surveillance on all them.

These people are running from conflict. A conflict we had a part in, and not for the better. It is guaranteed that a few of them are actually hostile towards the US, because we don't exactly have a good track record with Syria. Tensions will be high, and eventually, the rope would snap.


If they're hostile to America, they won't come. How powerful is a rope snap anyway with a population of 2,000?

10,000 is still a big number. It doesn't change the fact that we are taking a risk.


It's all relative. And risks are worth taking, after all, if it weren't for those courageous Americans that took the risk of treason against the British Empire, why hell, we'd be speaking German now.

-The vetting process for Syrians will suck indefinitely. They can only be checked with the information we have, and since Syria and the US haven't cooperated with each other for decades, and since the country is in turmoil, it does not suffice. There is too great a risk.


What is a vetting process? Anyhow, the process can be changed to something better, that solves that problem.

Before the Sochi Olympics, there was a new sensation sweeping the Russian nation called, "Black Widows." These are women who have sworn a life of revenge for their (Muslim) husbands being killed. The US has some Syrian blood on its hands through its actions, and lack thereof.


How many wars on its own land has America waged against Muslims who feel culturally separate from America (and begin their own country, later invading America)? Things work differently from country environment. This I think is the most valid point to make, but if they already can come into America. Forge a British passport, maybe, get to American base and say that you're a British reporter on the vileness of the Levant, getting a Muslim prospect as well, and have them ship you eventually to America.

-There are young children being trained by ISIS as we type.


There are young children being being trained by the Americans as we type, so what?

There is too great a risk that people who are hostile towards the US are being let in, and as a nation, your own people should come first.


Too great a risk? It's small, and it's considerably less risky than Mexican immigration/the whole thing, or Puerto Rico. And being nationalist is nothing good.

France took in refugees, and now it has closed borders after being attacked at its capital. At least two of the terrorists have been confirmed to have been foreign-born.


The Paris attacks are really anecdotal evidence of a kind. France had many Algeriens coming in after the great wars there; I think the most relative Muslim immigration in Europe, but not much terrorism, although both sides were very violent and hated each others' guts.

One of the passports used a name that matches that of another that was detained in Turkey. Even more evidence that we don't know who we would be letting in.


Goes along with above.
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 11:12:09


Angry Panda
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Berdan thanks to correct me (also Eklipse no point on repeting what he said, I understood my error once I read berdan's comment).

I of course meant people of Muslim culture/background. I consider myself a French of Christian Catholic background, because I was raised in a Christian environment (as I told you in another thread, my grand parents were very pious persons, my parents werent that religious but for them and other members of my family I had to achieve each of the Catholic blessed sacrament from Baptism to Confirmation), nevertheless now I am no longer religious and consider myself close to Agnoticism or Atheism : this is what I meant about the Muslims, I know people that were also raised with a Muslim education with both parents being Muslims, some were born in the Maghreb, or Africa.
I hope things are clear now.

Edited 11/20/2015 11:24:12
Should the US Accept Migrants?: 11/20/2015 13:05:02


Des {TJC}
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Panda, I live in the state with the highest amount of middle eastern population in the U.S.

Dearborne, Michigan has Sharia Law. Like dude, comeone, what the fuck. They aren't fucking assimilating, they're trying to turn my own state into New Afghanistan.


And realistically, we don't even take care of our Veterans, why should we take care of 10,000 refugees?
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