And if you agree, like him, that ISIS is better that the US and France, its fine with me, i think it is sad but i won't bother arguing against it on the internet, that would just be a waste of time.

To be perfectly blunt, ISIS is better than either the US or France if you apply morality to nations. The French invasion of Africa and subjugation of it's natives was downright barbaric and if you believe in something akin to evil then yes it was evil. ISIS is not particularly brutal compared to what France did and not brutal compared to what the US did. But what ISIS is doing is unacceptable, just as what the US is also doing now and what France has done.

This is why you should not apply what someone does in the name of a ideology or idea to others in the same ideological group/nation/entity. You would have to do it to yourself eventually and you would not like it.

I do not agree with the premise that what a person does when in group makes the entire group guilty of what that person did , just showing you a mirror to yourself.

Edited 8/12/2015 06:15:27

Hey everybody I have a legitimate question :

Is John Smith relevant? I don't see him post a lot, but when he does it's usually in argument/flame war threads like this. he used to post all the time, but now he doesn't post as much. I'm not sure what vibe anybody gets from him.

Christianity can only be held responsible if the acts are done in the name of Christianity. Similarly for atheism. In the case of the USSR or the PRC, people weren't killed in the name of atheism - they were killed in the name of communism or nationalism or the cult of Mao.

Similarly, Christianity isn't responsible for any atrocities committed by the regime of Francisco Franco.


THIS

Now you're backpedaling. Originally you said Christianity was responsible for much of the evil in the world and had to be held accountable for crimes done for it's sake in the past.

For the record, It was never my point to paint Atheism as evil for the crimes of the Soviet Union and such. I'm simply trying to show you that if you judge Christianity based on actions of it's followers than you must also judge Atheism based on the actions of it's followers. Otherwise we have ourselves a double standard.

Judge both the same, or don't judge either at all.

Edited 8/12/2015 14:03:04

@Eklipse, I think you're missing a subtle distinction. Christianity (or Islam or atheism or communism) is responsible for what people do using it as justification. It is not responsible for what Christians do if it is unrelated to Christianity. So Christianity has to to answer for the Crusades or the Inquisition and Islam has to answer for the suicide bombers. Christianity does not have to answer for Franco.

People don't use atheism as a justification to do anything except argue with religious people online. Atheist dictators like Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot have killed many religious people, but they didn't single them out specifically. The defining feature of the people they persecuted was that they had allegiances to things other than said dictator. They also purged intellectuals and people with contacts to the west.

@Beren:
Does this mean i can go out and kill religious nuts and blame it on other atheïsts ? :D

Here is my original statement:

Religion has been used for bad things because on so many levels it teaches bad things, and these teachings have lead otherwise good people do bad things. Not everything is to blame on religion, but religion do have a big responsability in those crime, and should be held accountable.

Here is your version of my statement

Originally you said Christianity was responsible for much of the evil in the world and had to be held accountable for crimes done for it's sake in the past.

Do you see how you keep misrepresenting what i say?

It is hard to argue when everytime you answer me, you use straw man arguments.
And actually even if that was what i said, that does not contratict Beren's arguments.
I don't see the backpedaling.
All i ever said is that if there is a connection to be made between a crime and religious beliefs, that connection should be made, and religion should be held accountable for it, to the extent of its reponsability.

@powerpos, to the extent that you go and kill people due to atheism atheism would bear some of the responsibility. That responsibility does not, however, get transferred to other atheists themselves, just as peaceful Muslims are not responsible for the actions of suicide bombers and Eklipse is not responsible for the Inquisition.

only got one thing to say...

" We live life as we do because we believe in living life. But to live without faith is a worse than death itself. I would accept God with open arms long before I ever denied him" ~Saint Jeanne D'Arc

Here is my original statement:

Religion has been used for bad things because on so many levels it teaches bad things, and these teachings have lead otherwise good people do bad things. Not everything is to blame on religion, but religion do have a big responsability in those crime, and should be held accountable.


Here is your version of my statement

Originally you said Christianity was responsible for much of the evil in the world and had to be held accountable for crimes done for it's sake in the past.


Do you see how you keep misrepresenting what i say?

It is hard to argue when everytime you answer me, you use straw man arguments.

You're not even reading your own statement. You're saying that religion has responsibility in crimes and should be held accountable. "Religion do have a big responsibility in those crime, and should be held accountable." Word for word quote.

Now, if that is the case, then Atheism must also be held accountable in the same manner.

Now stop crying "straw-man", seriously.

All i ever said is that if there is a connection to be made between a crime and religious beliefs, that connection should be made, and religion should be held accountable for it, to the extent of its reponsability.

Then if there is a connection between a crime and anti-religious beliefs, the connection should be made and Atheism should be held accountable for it, to the extent of its responsibility.

Personally religion has caused more damage than its solved. The crusades is evidence of this

Faith in general causes damages - we must all be apatheist.

@Eklipse

Now, if that is the case, then Atheism must also be held accountable in the same manner.

To put this case to rest, i'll say that i partially agree with you.
I would not blame Theism for the islamist suicide bombers or the abortion clinic christian bombers. I would blame the theism-based doctrines associated with it (a certain form of islamism and christianism).
Just like i wouldn't blame atheism for for the soviet union massacres, i would blame the atheism-based docrtine associated with it (a certain form of communism).
The reason is that atheism and theism (atheism is the antonym to theism, not religion) are not associated with any doctrine, juste the fact of having a belief in a deity, or lacking belief in any deity.

There are only so many examples of Religious people acting like assholes because the vast, vast majority of people have been, and remain, religious.

In recent history, with the rise of Marxist atheism and fascism(Both of which were heavily oppressive of religion), we are seeing the millions upon millions of people killed by atheists rising. In world war two, the Nazi party and Stalin's USSR killed around 30-50 Million people, undeniably brutally, and both of these were oppressive Atheist regimes.

China, although having four times the population of the US And having been around for thousands of years, barely even compares to the US in most aspects, due to having been under an oppressive atheist regime for the last 50 years.

the Nazi party and Stalin's USSR killed around 30-50 Million people, undeniably brutally, and both of these were oppressive Atheist regimes.

I'll just copy/paste my previous answer to that, since you probably posted without reading the comment.

Oh boy. Hitler was a Roman Catholic. He persecuted the jews, true enough, but he was not atheist at all. All the nazi had "God with us" on the buckle of their belts for one. And here is a few quote from Hitler:

The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement)
was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.
[Adolf Hitler, “Mein Kampf”, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]

I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty
Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord’s work.
[Adolph Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]

video footage of Hitler invoking God:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StaPF5qqFDk

There is a long list of Hitler quote here:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/23/list-of-hitler-quotes-he-was-q/

I haven't verified all the quote in their context so there might be a bit of quotemining, i don't know, but i think the picture here is quite clear. Hitler was not an atheist.

And regarding USSR and Chine, etc, it makes no sense blaming atheism since atheism is not a doctrine. Just like Theism is not a doctrine. Just read the comments.

Italics are cool

no sense blaming atheism since atheism is not a doctrine.

"L'athéisme est une attitude ou une doctrine qui nie l'existence de quelque dieu ou divinité que ce soit"
- Wikipedia.org

BOLD IS BETTER!!!!

really?

yeah you braindamaged rap rapist!