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Warlight's coins...: 8/7/2015 16:47:32

kolosser
Level 55
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hey there, it says we can buy coins on the coins page... and also that if we earn more coins, we can withdraw those! I would love to buy some coins...
If it trusted the whole thing!
I would want to earn some coins and get my money back by withdrawing back, you get that? Now I saw that if you buy 10.640 coins for $100, you would be able to withdraw them to $106.40 making $6.40 profit...
WHATTA? This isnt a game that only some players play, there are LOTS of players playing this game, so I dont think that is a bug, as I noticed it since when I started playing (like 2 days after, but WC)
Can someone tell me why it is like that? Why wouldnt we just keep buying 10.640 coins for $100 and withdrawing them for $106.40 being able to get lots of money like we just click buttons on a money machine?

Please answer me, because Ive been asking this myself since I started playing WL

Thanks for reading this,
-Kolo
Warlight's coins...: 8/7/2015 16:52:13


Krzysztof 
Level 66
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If coins are deposited and withdrawn without being played, an 18% processing fee will be deducted from the unplayed coins. To avoid this processing fee, you must play as many coins as you have received from the action of depositing plus bonus coins, at least once
Warlight's coins...: 8/7/2015 16:54:09

kolosser
Level 55
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ah, and then 10% will go off so The worth you got will only be $95.76?
Thanks for the answer, got it now
Warlight's coins...: 8/7/2015 17:17:28


TBest 
Level 60
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You also need 75$ or 7500 coins MINIMUM, as the withdrawal amount.

EDIT: I just pointed out how hard it is to earn money on this, without playing high stake coin game.

Edited 8/7/2015 19:52:58
Warlight's coins...: 8/7/2015 19:31:04

kolosser
Level 55
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You even read the full thing?
Warlight's coins...: 8/7/2015 22:29:07


Dublin Warrior 
Level 49
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So don't buy coins at all unless you are really sure of using all of them, because it sounds like the refund process is hamstrung by making sure that people are not cheating Mr. Fizzer. :P

It sounds like we'd be better off if the game sold 10,000 coin for $100.00 even, with no bonus....
Warlight's coins...: 8/7/2015 22:43:42


mech
Level 60
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It sounds like we'd be better off if the game sold 10,000 coin for $100.00 even, with no bonus....

Not necessarily.
Fizzer has an incentive to get you to buy coins, and have to use them all to join games.
Why?
Because every time you join a coin game, Fizzer taxes you 10% of the coins to join. For example, the 80 coin Small Earth 1v1 games have a reward of 144 for the winner.
Furthermore, it takes for freaking ever to get 7500 coins to be able to cash out. I know because I've been working my way up there for the last 3 coin seasons, and still haven't got there yet (even though I've been top 10).
Thus, the high cash out limit means you play tons of games, and therefore pay tons of taxes, before you are able to turn your coins into real life money.

Edited 8/7/2015 23:08:07
Warlight's coins...: 8/12/2015 23:46:17


[REGL] Pooh 
Level 60
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My issue with coins is what Mech brought up: 10% cut on each game goes to the house.


The Tax should be 1%.


At 10%, you'd have to win 60% of the games you play (against premier players that invest money to buy coins, not newbs) to even have a positive coin flow.

Yes, its a game of skill, but I find it hard to win nearly 2/3 of the games against good people, let alone 1/3.

I could see my coin purchases as contributions to Fizzer, but you can't really make a living off donations like that. If the cut was 1%, there would be a LOT more coin games for him to tax.

Some other ideas:
-Tournaments with a tax taken out of the end, so that you can play 10-15 games and only get pay a single lower tax bill? For example, a 10 player Round Robin, 100 coin entry, 1000 coins total, 600 to winner, 300 to 2nd, 90 to 3rd, and 10 to Fizzer.

-Buy into Seasonal Ladder with 100 coins, stagger winnings.
Warlight's coins...: 8/13/2015 00:02:42

Quicksand
Level 60
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Tax 1%? Lol, you want so much warlight death? :(
Warlight's coins...: 8/13/2015 00:20:12


[REGL] Pooh 
Level 60
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@Quicksand. No, I want him to tax more games. Right now, I suspect only the elite players play coin games. If you could play and have a decent shot at having a positive income, or at least have a chance to play in some fun/interesting formats, then there's more revenue for Fizzer by the means of more games to tax.
He gets $0 for the other games, minus adverts.
Warlight's coins...: 8/13/2015 00:26:42


Dublin Warrior 
Level 49
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^^^ I agree with Quicksand's sentiments,
as I don't think a 1% Tax would do much to keep the game going...

but on the other hand, I don't think it should take more than 1 season to withdraw you coins either... and the $75.00 minimum does seem a bit steep...

I think it should be much closer to $25.00...
but again, if there is a financial incentives to buy coins,
that gets in the way when providing fair methods to get those coins back...

Perhaps the game should keep the bonus coins under certain circumstances...

maybe even additional coins under rare circumstances... :)

Thanks for listening.

-- Dublin Warrior
Warlight's coins...: 8/13/2015 00:26:55


Benjamin628 
Level 59
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5% sounds like a compromise to me.
Warlight's coins...: 8/13/2015 00:31:24


hedja 
Level 58
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changing tax from 10% to 1% would decrease money in by 10 times. To keep warlight at even income you suggest that by doing that 10 times as much money will flow between players? Also at low price ranges (e.g. 5 coin entry games) you cannot have 1% tax rate, 10% is the least you can have (apart from 0, but that would be silly) so it seems fine as it is.

The round robin tournament idea you have I'm pretty sure is what happens at the moment with open tournaments.
However I do like your idea for Seasonal, it would incentivise people to play well. However it does mean that some could surrender to a "friend" to help them come 1st for a financial incentive, sharing the reward slightly, if the player throwing the game would not make much more money from a win.
Warlight's coins...: 8/13/2015 12:58:51


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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"The Tax should be 1%...then there's more revenue for Fizzer by the means of more games" Really?

You do not know how many coin games are currently played, you also cannot know what effect any particular tax rate would have on number of games played. You do KNOW in a deep and unquestioning way that massive tax cuts necessarily means higher revenue and that can only mean one thing...



Edited 8/13/2015 12:59:21
Warlight's coins...: 8/13/2015 13:45:16


Beren • apex 
Level 63
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Well played, piggy. Well played.
Warlight's coins...: 8/13/2015 14:37:57


Pink 
Level 60
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anyway, i know some people bought coins, but i wnder if the large majority fo coins going out there arent still the free coins everyone lost at the begginign to the good players. I just got back to coin games when fizer created the 5 coin entry games
Warlight's coins...: 8/13/2015 17:49:15


Mercer 
Level 34
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No one has mentioned the marketing we are doing for coin games. The $1 we are giving all new players adds up. The marketing costs are offset by entry fees. Coins are more successful if marketed. So the balance between giving $1.00 to each new person and the cost of entry fees are related. If we reduced our marketing there would be less coin players. Coin Players would earn less money. No one wins if there is no one to play. :) So by paying a 10% entry fee, you are helping promote the game.

Players like Krzychu for example have put no money in but have won thousands of dollars.
Warlight's coins...: 8/13/2015 19:28:14


Benjamin628 
Level 59
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Is it possible for me to get the gift if I rejected it because I thought I couldn't play because of my age?
Warlight's coins...: 8/13/2015 22:12:29


Mercer 
Level 34
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@Benjamin628, no. But feel free to put some money in and play.
Warlight's coins...: 8/14/2015 00:02:25


[REGL] Pooh 
Level 60
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Hmm...

My point remains. The only two incentives to pay for coins are (1) you can win 2/3 of the games against other invested, and therefore skilled, players, and (2) you like to donate to Warlight.

Fair Warning: I'm pulling these numbers out of my keister. To get a better idea, you could map out a normal distribution centered at 50% with a few standard deviations. Give me the coin game stats and I'll do it if you want.

But anyway.... Assume....With a 10% tax, there are about than 0.5% of the players that could have positive coin flow (per reason 1 above). With a 1% tax, there are likely 20% of players that could have positive coin flow. Therefore, you get a 40 times increase in the number of coin game players for a 10x decrease in tax rate.

Thus, I just raised revenue by 4x, not cut it by 10x.

Next, Compare the house cut to the following:

House Edge (with proper play)
Blackjack 0.5%
Craps, 0.8%
Video Poker,0.5-5%
Baccarat 1.06%
Roulette 5.5%
Slot Machines, 0-17%
Slot Machines, 5-17%
Keno, 25%+
State Lottery, 50%+

-AND-

Poker Rake: Typically 2.5% to 10%

Sources: http://vegasclick.com/gambling/houseedge.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rake_(poker)

While the first set are games of chance, when played to their best ability, the house typically wins 0.5% to 5% for popular games.

The second stat is closer to what we have, a casino's rake on a poker game, a game of skill head to head against a competitor. At least according to wikipedia, we're at the max of a typical casino rake for a poker game.

Make the odds closer to the more popular casino games if you want people to have a chance. This has nothing to do with me being an American. This has everything to do with people having no incentive to play coin games because buying coins is akin to a donation to the site. I've bought several donation memberships for other players, a dead piggy alt included, so I'm not saying donations (per reason 2 above) don't happen. But if you want a sustainable coin game system, The Rent is Too Damn High!

Source:




Finally, Mercer, until someone makes a withdrawl, Warlight is paying out funny money. Every coin that is payed out needs to be played. Per the terms/conditions, every coin needs to be played (and thus subject to 10% tax) or face a 18% anti-money laundering fee. Additionally, withdrawls are also subject to almost 9% admin tax fee for a $75 withdrawl. From the 100*thousands, yes, that goes to the pool of payouts, however, all the more reason to have people increase the amount they play by lowering the tax.
Warlight's coins...: 8/14/2015 00:38:29


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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How is the rent high when you can play for free? You are not required to play coin games.
Warlight's coins...: 8/14/2015 00:41:24


[REGL] Pooh 
Level 60
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@CMU, that's the other problem. With free rent available for regular open games, there is no reason to make donations to warlight by buying coins.

My concerns address fixing the motivation to buy a coin in the first place, which funds warlight.
Warlight's coins...: 8/14/2015 02:51:18


Mercer 
Level 34
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@[REGL]Pooh, For a guy that has played zero coin games and sits with 100 free coins in his account... I am not sure you are qualified to answer this. Would you play if we had a 1% rake?
Warlight's coins...: 8/14/2015 03:00:07


Des {TJC}
Level 58
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Just as a quick question, what would the 1% tax do to a say 10 coin wager game
Warlight's coins...: 8/14/2015 03:22:10


mech
Level 60
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I think the 10% coin tax is fair.

What coins need to succeed is not a lower tax rate (after all, Fizzer gives people 100 free coins, as well as coins for certain achievements), but more coin players and more new blood.

Instead of adjusting how much of the pie Fizzer takes each game, instead grow the size of the pie!

The system Fizzer has set up is clever. Giving people free coins so that they can whet their appetite is a great idea. More advertising to increase the amount of WL players to build up the community will create a positive reinforcement cycle for players to get involved in coin games.

I do agree with lowering the withdrawal limit, though. Like I've said above, I've placed top 10 for three (four now actually) seasons, and still cant withdraw.

To this end, I would propose a system of withdrawal fees something like the following:
Coins Withdrawn Fee
1000-2500 50% of coins
2500-5000 25% of coins
5000-7500 10% of coins
7500+ No fee

That way, if you really want to, you can withdraw early. But there is an incentive to reach the 7500 that is the current cap.

Edited 8/14/2015 03:23:24
Warlight's coins...: 8/14/2015 03:26:14


Benjamin628 
Level 59
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The lack of players in coin games is really the lack of good templates.
Warlight's coins...: 8/14/2015 03:33:57


mech
Level 60
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Another advantage to the system I just pointed out would be that it would incentive you to keep playing to get more and more coins, thus paying more taxes ^^
Warlight's coins...: 8/14/2015 03:34:29


[REGL] Pooh 
Level 60
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@Mercer, there's no reason for me to use the coins.

I am not that good of a player to ever withdraw a full $75.
Playing coin games does not give me access to any game that I can't already play.
I am not a fan of 0% luck settings.

If there were a reason for me to use them, I'd play them, and maybe even buy more. As it stands, I'll sit on my 4+ memberships that I purchased back in the day and my 100 gifted coins until there's a reason to play the coins.

I'm not trolling, I'm trying to be constructive with my feedback. If you see how I can be more constructive, please let me know.

Edited 8/14/2015 03:36:11
Warlight's coins...: 8/14/2015 04:00:40


mech
Level 60
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@ Pooh

Have you played a lot of coin games yet? I think you might find the 0% luck fun after a while. It allows you to control the outcome much more!
Warlight's coins...: 8/14/2015 04:27:23


The Cruelest
Level 56
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I don't think the point of coin games is to make money. I think the point is to gamble. It adds an aspect of intensity when your money is on the line even if it is just 80 cents.
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