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Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 02:24:43


knyte 
Level 58
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https://www.warlight.net/Map/19780-Europe-30

EDIT: Looks like reviews weren't deleted, just downvoted really hard.

It looks like they're at ~3.7 again, most of the negative reviews that called him out for stealing Fridge's map have been deleted, and there's been a flood of about 30-40 helpful/unhelpful ratings that came in and rated the original (pre-scandal) positive reviews as "helpful" and the ones calling it out as "unhelpful."

I don't think anyone other than Fizzer has the power to delete map reviews, but I might be wrong. I'm also curious as to where the flood of helpful/unhelpful (meta)reviews came in from.

Hopefully it's not Fizzer going through this and personally condoning RA's intellectual theft. That would be a pretty big middle finger to the mapmakers that so far seem to have been respected by Fizzer.

Thoughts?

Edited 7/23/2015 03:00:19
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 02:35:54


Thomas 633
Level 56
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It might be the fact I snapped at Fizzer on the reviews... however, just because I did that =, doesn't mean he should do that. Or the entire XS went and made it positive again. Of course, if we all start derating it again then we can probably beat them.
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 02:38:41


knyte 
Level 58
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Your rating is still up, along with a few other negative ratings. I tried to make mine "constructive" as well to give Fizzer less of an excuse to remove it.

EDIT: looks like all of them are up, just downvoted really hard.

Edited 7/23/2015 03:00:46
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 02:45:30


Benjamin628 
Level 59
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Maybe he took this as a challange:

Same thing will happen to Fridge's europe too. but u already know.

You are going to create lots of alts for payback?
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 02:50:13


knyte 
Level 58
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Thing is, RA doesn't have deletion powers. I don't think anyone but Fizzer and Mercer have them.

EDIT: And it looks like nothing's been deleted.

Edited 7/23/2015 03:01:10
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 02:56:56


Benjamin628 
Level 59
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He could make 100 alts or hack people, not that I am accusing him, it's just very, very odd.

Btw, I don't think any reviews were deleted, just downvoted a lot.

Edited 7/23/2015 02:57:17
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 02:59:52


knyte 
Level 58
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You seem to be right. The few reviews I was going to point to as obviously deleted still seem to be there.

Also, something we can do that's far more effective than rating the map down: reporting RA from his profile: https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=9014256489

Edited 7/23/2015 03:06:55
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 03:11:21


Thomas 633
Level 56
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I would like to ask Fizzer what happened....
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 03:19:26


knyte 
Level 58
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Based on what Ben said, I don't think Fizzer was involved. I can't seem to find any deleted reviews, so it looks like just RA and his alts. I think gaming map ratings is something Fizzer might actually suspend him for.
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 03:21:33


Thomas 633
Level 56
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If anyone wants I can go and get my clan to downvote it. Also other people can do the same...
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 03:23:55


Lawlz
Level 40
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Wow its almost like you're trying to encourage gaming map ratings. "Vote this map down, not because its bad but because I don't like this person"
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 03:26:23


Thomas 633
Level 56
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It's because he stole some art. If I went and made my own version of Guernica, and it sold for $200 million dollars, and it was the same except for some sloppy painting, do you think that Picassos' family might sue me?
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 03:28:29


knyte 
Level 58
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It's not because I don't like RA. It's because his behavior needs to be discouraged.

Think of it this way: it's kind of like how you lose a trademark the moment you stop protecting it. The concept of intellectual property itself ceases to exist when everyone thinks like you do, Lawlz, and that means that people who actually make things have no incentive to do so anymore.

That said, voting on the map is not the best thing to do. It's still screwing with the ratings system (even if to send a message that needs to be sent). Instead. just report RA. You can do it here:

https://www.warlight.net/Profile?p=9014256489

Edited 7/23/2015 03:29:24
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 04:10:00


ChrisCMU 
Level 60
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Hopefully we can get a comment from admins on this as to whether he violated a rule or not.

If not, and we cannot tank the rating, then we have no deterrent to future stealing.
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 04:18:34


knyte 
Level 58
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Section 13 of the Warlight ToS, possibly relevant parts highlighted:



13. Online Conduct and Abuse
A. Online Conduct and Abuse
You agree to use the Website and the Services provided through this Website only for lawful purposes and to behave in a fair manner. Unacceptable uses and behavior that is deemed unacceptable include, without limitation: (i) engaging in any illegal activity or the planning of any illegal activity; (ii) disseminating or transmitting statements or material that, to a reasonable person, may be abusive, obscene, pornographic, defamatory, harassing, grossly offensive, vulgar, threatening or malicious; (iii) creating, disseminating or transmitting files, graphics, software or other material that actually or potentially infringes the copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret, publicity or other intellectual property rights of any person; (iv) creating a false identity or otherwise attempting to mislead any person as to the identity or origin of any communication; (v) purposely entering faulty, misleading, incorrect, or incomplete information; (vi) exporting, re-exporting or permitting the downloading of any Service, software or content in violation of any export or import law, regulation or restriction of the United States and its agencies or authorities, or without all required approvals, licenses or exemptions; (vii) interfering, disrupting or attempting to gain unauthorized access to other Accounts on the Website or any other computer network; (viii) committing, or attempting to commit fraud, especially through the use of mechanisms, software, or any script in association with the Website that is intended to interrupt the functioning of the Website, help a user achieve better results than could be achieved through the sole use of a mouse/keyboard, help the user to achieve a score that is not possible by following the game controls described by Warlight, or negatively influence another Player's game controls; (ix) opening and/or using multiple Accounts; (x) purposely causing an interruption or error in order to influence a game, such as to cause the game to prematurely end; (xi) deliberately transferring money between Accounts (i.e. "money laundering"); (xii) harassing other Players; (xiii) disseminating or transmitting viruses, worms, Trojan horses, RATs, keyboard loggers, time bombs, spyware, adware, cancelbots or any other malicious or invasive code or program; (xiv) causing any breach of the security of Your Account or the Website; or (xv) breaching any of these Terms and Conditions.



So not too many things, but these are just examples (as the ToS notes by stating "including, without limitation"). The applicability of clause (iii) also depends on whether Warlight considers maps to be third-party copyrights. I can't find any part where Warlight specifically states that all user-created content on the site belongs to Warzone, LLC, but I expect something like that to be here.
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 06:08:10


[WM] ᵀᴴᴱ𝓕𝓻𝓲𝓭𝓰𝓮 
Level 59
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Congratulations Ra - no sense of guilt, no honor. All you do is gaming the system..
Tell me - is it genetic?
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 06:37:11


ℳℛᐤƬrαńɋℰ✕
Level 57
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Thank you Lawlz for being sensible. Trying to solve this situation by deliberate down voting map is not going to solve the real problem. There are many Virtual-Harassing methods and I do find this falls under it. Its like you think maps rating has an effenct of RA behaviour. Only good it does, it reflects someones opinion on what RA did, but promoting-encouraging others do to it is not right. Let everyone decide themselves what they do with the rating.

And to me it seems stupid to think that map-rating and negative review would change the current status of things. If Warlight community wants to show that there has been something wrong done to person and even preach of rules its the way of gathering Votes either on Usrevoice or any other method and send them to Fizzer!

Although I do not remember who said that in other topic, but it might have been you Knyte as well, that TOS is merely to cover Fizzer here and no-one takes it really seriously.

So in my opinion, stop making effortless ruckus and directing force into map vote which nothing to do with the fracas between RA and Fridge. If there would be a petition, I would sign it, although I lack evidence of happening, but the topic went wide so there must be some truth and Fizzer should look into it!
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 07:02:38


knyte 
Level 58
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There are many Virtual-Harassing methods and I do find this falls under it


That's an extremely broad definition of harassment you've got there.

If Warlight community wants to show that there has been something wrong done to person and even preach of rules its the way of gathering Votes either on Usrevoice or any other method and send them to Fizzer!


Uservoice is for improvements to the game. Reporting RA is the proper channel for this.

that TOS is merely to cover Fizzer here and no-one takes it really seriously.


So, to be honest, at this point I'm 99% sure you're just repeating things you've heard that are partly true.

The TOS has many parts that aren't enforced that are there to cover Fizzer in legal cases- for example, the very first three sections. Section 13 is not one of them. Those are Fizzer's guidelines for what sort of behavior he bans from the site. He's been relatively diligent about enforcing them.

I would sign it, although I lack evidence of happening, but the topic went wide so there must be some truth and Fizzer should look into it!


There is evidence posted in literally the first post on the thread where this is brought up, including a screenshot of a confession by RA: https://www.warlight.net/Forum/100790-ra-stolen-strategic-europe-map-europe-30

This is not an effortless ruckus. This is the community taking action against a stolen map. There need to be repercussions for stealing- at least for the mapmakers themselves.

These have been relatively effective so far- the map's rating had dropped by a whole point. RA has also violated the ToS even more egregiously now (using alt accounts to manipulate map ratings, including one that literally confessed, "this is RA" in its review of the map).
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 08:12:57


ℳℛᐤƬrαńɋℰ✕
Level 57
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Knyte I agree on you in this part that something must be done! Don´t get me wrong in this. I have not read TOS - and it probably it is true. But the banning of player according to rules is also to cover Fizzer from legal issues - especially players who have payed for it (unless it is not in form of donation-member-game: i am not aware which method it is in this game, but generally all games use this).
I know what uservoice is I just tried to give comparison. I, probably other players use map ratings and reviews to rate and review maps not reflect my personal opinion about that player - it is not a Social-board or Off-topic hate section. Lets use things for what purpose it was meant to be used.

I know the thread I read it. I do not want to get into this. As I did not exactly understood Did Fridge gave him .svg to test or RA just Screenshotted and Draw it over. It was Europe map and its not exactly hard to find one on internet. So the action if teft must be made clear. The Europe map in essence is not teft, put using his .svg would be. As far as I read the OP -Fridge sayed he re-draw it. Did not read the whole 6-page crying thread - just waste of time! If it would have bee Fictional map things would be much clear in intellectual property side! Europe is historical creation, and the borders are not exactly "WL communities" effort. So basically everyone can create an Europe map with same connection-territory size.

If it was clear stealing. Then yes, like I said something should be done! But giving bad ratings, spamming review with negativity against RA won´t solve this. My advice, if it falls clearly under TOS - let the community Report RA or create a petition somehow. So we abide by the rules to agree them. And let the map ratings-review be for what is its purpose. You just offer Trolls more ways to be creative in ruining Warlight community by showing how to up-vote, down vote maps. Not that is such a hidden trick, but not everyone would have come up with it.

And the ALT accounts. I am not laying blame - but I would imagine he would not be first nor last! And as we see alts are used for everything here: starting from forum to coin games to map ratings. Directing hate agaist one violater is just abusive. The issue must be solved widely.

What people get by down-voting RA-s map? Just showing your attitude in virtual manners - in real terms nothing change. Or I might have been wrong and all along map ratings should (or even must) reflect ones opinion towards map creator!
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 08:34:33


knyte 
Level 58
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The issue isn't that RA made an Europe map. The issue is that RA's Europe was a blatant redraw/copy of Fridge's- if you look at the territories, they're almost entirely the same. It's very, very unlikely that RA created that specific map from scratch.

I understand that some of what RA's doing are normal behaviors, just like how trolling is a normal behavior on the forums. We won't be able to completely get rid of them, but if you look at other sites that have actually had management/moderation systems, you can see that there are methods (community-driven ones, even) that clearly work- and while we can't completely eliminate such behavior, we can certainly reduce it.

Rating down RA's map isn't about attitude. It's about making sure anyone who looks at the map page knows what's going on, about making the map less visible, and ultimately about taking away any incentive RA has for stealing a map and helping the real map (by Fridge) shine through when it comes up.
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 08:40:33


Genghis 
Level 54
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Timmy : Hey Jimmy, those are cool transformers toys.

Jimmy : Thanks timmy. I know you like being Optimus prime, but i do as well. Since these are by toys, i think I'll be Optimus prime. But, you can be Unicron!

Timmy : Awww... okay.

*later*

Jimmy : Hi timmy. ..

Timmy : What's the matter?

Jimmy : I don't have my Optimus prime anymore!

Timmy : Oh, well wanna play transformers? I just got a new optimus prime. But i get to be optimus prime.

Jimmy : Fair's fair.

Jimmy : Wait, this is my optimus prime!

Timmy : ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Jimmy :

I've dumbed it down for all the toddlers.
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 08:41:11


[WM] ᵀᴴᴱ𝓕𝓻𝓲𝓭𝓰𝓮 
Level 59
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Mr'Trαnqέx - please forgive me the phrase but if you knew anything about game mapmaking, you'd know it's much more than just drawing borders from a real world map. If you're after a good map, you need an idea of how the gameplay on the map should look like, whether you want the map to be balanced or not. And for the map to really work you eed hours of testing with different settings, and changing the map itself after each and every game.

"Classic" Troll's original europe 1.0 map is very imbalanced. The emphasis is in a few regions that top players always want to control or at least set a foot in to prevent the enemy of controlling. Other regions are less important and only create sort of a "distance" between the "fertile grounds". My map was intended to be imbalanced as well but in different way. The fact that both maps are in most parts based on real world administrative divisions has no meaning because they are clearly different in gameplay in every way, not to mention even though my map and Troll's are both real world europe maps, the teritorry divisions are very different.

What Ra did is a clear Rip-Off. He did not have my SVG, he redraw the whole thing but it's just a blatant copy and everybody can see it. He did not do any testing, It was already done by me, he changed a few details here and there and expects being given credit for it while saying mine was only "idea".
It would be true if I went to him and said - hey Ra, why don't you make a new Euro map with different balance to the classic one - let's say - divide the big countries into small bonusses, but create a chain of 1/1 bonusses and fast sea connections which will dramatically improve mobility on the map. And by the way - I really like Iceland, but it makes a fortress of Northwestern islands, so maybe don't include it in this map, so that you diminish the significance of that corner a bit.

My map from the first drawings was intended to strategically speaking bring completely different europe map to what we had before. It introduces sea connections and bonusses you did not see in previous maps. All of those were well thought of and proven to work as planned (changing both balance and dynamics on the board).

I will try to publish it soon, despite I am very busy last few months. I don't care about Ra's army of alts reducing it's rating. I don't actually understand why is he so mad at me that he plans doing such things. All I asked him for was to include my nickname as the creator on the map itself, and changing map description so that my credits are clear. He refused, and did it in imho an unacceptable manner.. You can all be judges here.
Weird Ratings on RA's Stolen Europe Map: 7/23/2015 10:58:11


ℳℛᐤƬrαńɋℰ✕
Level 57
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Its okey Fridge/AlterEgo. I have drawn, tested, played. Maybe one day will publish - if it is perfect and worth it. And I know the effort it takes to make and test and constantly think over setting/map features so It wont be random and pointless. And that is exactly my point in Maps and settings which create game-play. Different maps need different approach - there is no universal way to do it. No Rome, Europe or Earth map is perfect in full measure. They just suite with particual settings.
I would definitely prefer your map to Standard Europe and to RA-s copy of it! I am waiting it! I looked now closer and they are exactly the same. Thanks for explaining as well.
But back to main topic, I still feel and think spamming RA-s Europe copy with bad ratings and reviews would not solve the problem. Rather than encourge him to do same on his map and other players ones. And again the option is to Report RA by community. I highly doubt that Fizzer would consider the issue in review section. Second - yes it ought to be made known to other players and one review is enough for others to upvote (find particular review useful).

I personally have not played, will not play nor review map that - as it is not made by him, so he/she does not deserve the feedback at all. Simple as that. Starting map review Flame war is petty thing to do. If this map does not deserve to be here, let it die amongst his alts.
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