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Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 10:25:37


125ch209 
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Today is the openly secular day, a day to help closeted secular people come out of the closet. The goal is for secular people to tell at least one person that they are secular.

Honestly to me it feels a bit ridiculus, as i live in a country where being secular is not discriminated against. And i come from a secular upbringing so i never had to "come out" as secular, since i never was religious in the first place.
But apparently in some 3rd world countries like the USA, secular people are discriminated against and it is difficult for them to come out of the closet. So today is a day to help them take a the first step by pledging to tell 1 person about it.

To me this sounds crazy because i live in france,and i lived in Morrocco, Niger, Brazil, and i have never felt like i was discriminated against for my secularism.(probably because i'm white and french so no one expected me to be anything else really)
Telling one of my friends that i am an atheist would be like telling them "hey, just wanted you to know, i ate an apple today."

Plus i can see why an event like this would be considered as atheist propaganda, and bothering people with your beliefs seems like what a religious person would do, so i kinda have a problem with that.

At the same time, if i was a religious person, i think it would be hard for me to admit that to my parents. I think it would be easier for me to tell my family that i am gay than telling them i am christian or muslim.
But if you are religious at least you have the mosque or the church or whatever temple to turn to if you feel lonely in your belief.

Since secularism or atheism is not a religion, but more of a "think for yourself" point of view, there is no organised community of secular people (well there is, but not on the same scale as religion).

Apparently, studies shows that you would have better chance to be elected in the USA as an onpenly gay person than as an openly atheist. So considering the discrimination against gay people, i can only imagine what it would be like to be atheist in the US. (not to mention in all the other theocracies in the world)

So honestly i don't know if this openly secular day is a good thing or not. I guess to some people living in very religious environment, it could prove helpful.

So there it is, today is the openly secular day. If you feel like you have trouble coming out as a secular person, go tell 1 person, even if it is to a person you don't know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ0rZ9FGOAU

http://www.openlysecularday.org/tell-one-person/

Edited 4/23/2015 14:15:29
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 10:50:18


Ska2D2 
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I thought secular wasn't so much not believing in a diety i.e atheist - more a belief that Church and State should be separate, and that all religions (or lack of) should be treated equally. Like France ... and ironically enough seeing your examples about the U.S ... The U.S.

Correct me if I'm wrong?

ps I come from a unique country in that we are essentially secular but the technical Head of State is also the head of the Church of England the biggest religion.
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 11:02:51


125ch209 
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you are right, if you talk about a country, secularism means separation between church and state.

If you talk about a person, it means without religion (different than atheism wich mean the disbelief in supernatural deities)

Is the queen really the head of the sate in England? does she have any kind of executive power?

edit: to be honest, i think they use the word secular instead of atheist in this campain because the word atheist have such a bad reputation in the US. In some people minds, thanks to the medias like fox news, atheism is a synonyme to nazism or stalinism.

edit 2 : the US has a secular constitution. But when 50% of its population believe in creationnism, 85% being christians, people swearing on the bible in court, and all the presidents openly refer to god as if it was a thing, talking crazy about holy wars and the axis of evil. A country where there isn't one elected politician being openly atheist. It doesn't strike me as a very secular country in reality.

Edited 4/23/2015 11:24:26
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 11:22:55


Eklipse
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But apparently in some 3rd world countries like the USA, secular people are discriminated against and it is difficult for them to come out of the closet.

Pfffffttt. Secular Americans in the closet? They're one of the loudest voices. Put the word "God" anywhere and they'll be suing in a heartbeat. They aren't being actively discriminated against because many of them are too busy going on the offense against Christians.

Also, 3rd world country, really?

i can only imagine what it would be like to be atheist in the US. (not to mention in all the other theocracies in the world)

The U.S a theocracy? Surely you're trolling with all this? American atheists use separation of church and state to get exactly what they want left and right, while playing the victims on the few occasions when they lose.

Side Note: Why are so many of the European users on this site so hostile towards the U.S? Do you guys not have your own issues to worry about? I would think France in particular does considering recent events.
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 11:25:35


Ska2D2 
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Learn something new everyday :)

She is a figurehead head of state. She has no real power. It's true that she holds some constitutional powers. But the understanding is that she never uses them. And she is the head of the church of England. But the country has no official religion and is secular in everything else - certainly being a member of the CoE has no benefits compared to other religions in how the state treats you.

Although if you read the daily mail and some other right wing press you might think that Christians were horribly persecuted in Britain!

Edit: Eklipse snipe

It's not just Europeans - America bashing is a hobby the world over, don't worry about it - it's just because you are the (self appointed?) world leaders so you're on the pedestal to be sniped at.

And always remember it's (mostly!) aimed at the government not the people. :)

Edited 4/23/2015 11:27:41
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 11:27:55


125ch209 
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3rd world...i was being ironic, even though in some aspect, specifically on the matter of religion, the US does strike me to be a bit left behind.

I never said the US was a theocracy, maybe i didn't express myself correctly, i shouldn't have put the word "other" as it is misleading. But of course the us is not a theocracy.

edit: i am not hostile towards the US at all. I've only been there once, i spent 2 weeks in Vegas to play poker. I loved it :)

Edited 4/23/2015 11:31:43
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 12:22:03


Eklipse
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specifically on the matter of religion, the US does strike me to be a bit left behind.

I suppose it's a matter of perspective. From my point of view Europe has degenerated in certain aspects, some parts of it more so than others.

I never said the US was a theocracy, maybe i didn't express myself correctly, i shouldn't have put the word "other" as it is misleading. But of course the us is not a theocracy.

I misinterpreted you then.

It's not just Europeans - America bashing is a hobby the world over, don't worry about it - it's just because you are the (self appointed?) world leaders so you're on the pedestal to be sniped at.

And always remember it's (mostly!) aimed at the government not the people. :)


Well the government certainly does make itself an easy target. My only issue is that it seems like if an American ever bashes a European country it causes a whole storm that you wouldn't see vice-versa.

If all countries were bashed semi-equally I'd probably never say anything about it, but the U.S is the butt of jokes so often that it gets old after awhile.

Edited 4/23/2015 12:22:45
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 13:08:29


Жұқтыру
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My only issue is that it seems like if an American ever bashes a European country it causes a whole storm that you wouldn't see vice-versa.


Hello, have you met a patriotic American? There's about 300,000,000 of them.
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 13:30:40


Genghis 
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I don't have an issue with secularism or atheism. I support secularism since it's how it should be in the lawmaking process.

However, when someone criticizes my beliefs when i never criticized their own, is when i think you are in need of a slap.

Europeans bash each other all the time. Polandball comics express this.

I agree with a point made earlier that right wing media is sooo distorted.
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 13:43:25

(retired)
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I openly support secularism and laïcité (not accurate translation for this word) in my country, yesterday again a terrorist attack was stopped just before it happened near Paris, a young Muslim brainwashed by the Daesh propaganda was targeting Christian churches. We must stand together and defend our republic and its principles, against religious obscurantists.

Vive la laïcité!

Edited 4/23/2015 13:52:06
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 13:47:39


[WL] Colonel Harthacanute
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If it wasn't for secularism, Jews would still be banned from being in England... ;(
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 13:53:20


125ch209 
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However, when someone criticizes my beliefs when i never criticized their own, is when i think you are in need of a slap.


Well you are free to not engage in an argument criticizing your beliefs. But i don't see why someone criticizing you beliefs would need a slap.
In my opinion, every idea, ideology, beliefs system or anything really, should be subjected to criticism (as long as it is constructive criticism)
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 14:13:30


125ch209 
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when i see the answers, i'm starting to wonder if this kind of campain isn't a bit disingenuous, because of its use of the word "secular". Wich isn't well understood (i myself had to research the term as i didn't exactly know what it meant to be a "secular person" )

Secularity (adjective form secular,[1] from Latin saecularis meaning "worldly" or "temporal") is the state of being separate from religion, or not being exclusively allied with or against any particular religion. (wikipedia)

So here when they say a secular person, it means a person separated from religion,i.e. a non-religious person (So in theory it includes people who believe in a supernatural being, or a higher power, but that don't follow any kind of religious ideology)

Whereas secularism is the principle that the state or a government should be separated from religion.

So a secular person is not a person who believe in secularism, since you can be a religious (thus by definition a non-secular person), and still support secularism.
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 14:39:47


Жұқтыру
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Atheism is a belief, too - believing that there is no god, and stuff like that.

Agnosticism - master religion.
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 14:55:57


125ch209 
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Would you say that "not believing" in leprechauns is a belief?

If so, then yes atheism is a belief.

Agnosticism answer a different question than atheism. Agnostics says "I don't know, and I probably can't know if deities exists"

I personnaly define myself as an agnostic atheist, because i don't know that a deity doesn't exist (nobody knows), but i live as if it doesn't exist, because there is no evidence for it. My disbelief in any deity is equal (whether it be Zeus, Thor, Jesus, Odin,Enlil, Ra, the flying spagetti monster, ...), as the evidences for them existing are equally poor.

however i know that if any deity or higher power exists, it would not be the litteral god of the Bible or the Quran, as it would be inconsistant with science.
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 15:02:59


Жұқтыру
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No, you're an Agnostic leaning towards Atheism, same as me. Also, for all you know, leprechauns are real, have you never been to Ireland?
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 15:04:28

(retired)
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percentage of atheists/agnostics



Edited 4/23/2015 15:06:13
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 15:08:18


Жұқтыру
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Vietnam should become our holy land, for us atheists and agnostics and irreligous are persecuted all around the world.

We will call it...Israel for Agnostics :).
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 15:25:14


125ch209 
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actually your data it outdated, the most recent study (released last week) shows that china is the less religious country, with 90+% defining themselves as non-religious, and 60+% convinced atheists

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/04/14/map-these-are-the-worlds-least-religious-countries/

edit: ironically enough, Israel has 65% of its population defining themselves as non-religious or atheists

Edited 4/23/2015 15:26:40
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 15:29:33


Жұқтыру
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Depends on who's your source and how you measure it.

Folk were asked this frain in one poll: Is religion an important part of your daily life?

Sweden was the highest, with NO having 88%. China 3rd highest with 82%. Israel has 54%.

Edited 4/23/2015 15:29:58
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 15:30:34

(retired)
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actually your data it outdated, the most recent study (released last week) shows that china is the less religious country, with 90+% defining themselves as non-religious, and 60+% convinced atheists


Believe me this is totally wrong, despite the prohibition of religions by the communist party, nowadays you can practice freely any religion, so there is a revival of religions currently in China. And most of the chinese believe in some way in a religion or many at the same time (buddhism mixed with taoism, and confucianism which is not really a religion but more similar to a philosophy), they do many rituals, and are certainly the most supersticious folk in this planet (source: I have been there for 6 months).

Edited 4/23/2015 15:47:11
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 15:47:47


125ch209 
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No, you're an Agnostic leaning towards Atheism, same as me. Also, for all you know, leprechauns are real, have you never been to Ireland?


No, i am an atheist, an quite serious about my atheism. I don't believe in deity.
But you will not find any atheist that will tell you he is 100% sure that there isn't some kind of higher power or god. This would be faith, and in my book, the definition of atheism is to reject faith and only rely on evidences.
If we are honest, everyone is agnostic, even religious people, but since they have "faith", they will tell you that they KNOW god exist (wich obviously they can't know, but faith is faith).

As a principle, i don't "believe" in something until there is enough evidence for me to start consider it as being true. As oppose to believing in everything i'm told without evidence, until proven wrong.

By saying that atheism is a belief, you switch the burden of proof.
Wether it be in courtrooms, in science, in philosophical discussion, and in debates, the burden of proof always lies with the one making the claim.
If a scientist make a hypothesis and says that he is right, the burden on proof is on him to prove that he is right. And all the opposition has to do is refute the scientist arguments. And after the testing of all the scientist arguments, if the hypothesis never failed, his hypothesis is a step closer to become an accepted as fact.

edit: example:
If i say God exists, then the burden of proof is on me to prove he exist.
If i say God does not exist, then the burden of proof is still on me to prove that god doesn't exist.

To my knowledge, i've never see any atheist arguing the non-existence of any kind of deities (as there would be no basis for the argument)
What you can see is atheists argue against the existence of a particular god. For example, the god of the Bible. If the bible being true is a prerequistite for the bible god to exist, then you can argue that the bible god doesn't exist by arguing that the bible is wrong.

Edited 4/23/2015 16:27:03
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 16:09:05


Eklipse
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The problem of measuring religious numbers with polls is that people tend to answer differently depending on how it's worded.
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 16:39:53


Жұқтыру
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But you will not find any atheist that will tell you he is 100% sure that there isn't some kind of higher power or god.


Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.


Atheism is being sure that there is no god, so on, while agnosticism is saying that nothing will be believed without evidence (but you can lean one way or the other).
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 16:52:30


125ch209 
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your definition:
Atheism is being sure that there is no god


wikipedia:
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist.


These 2 definitions are quite different in my opinion, and when i say i am an atheist, it means exactly "atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist"
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 16:55:22


125ch209 
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wikipedia:
Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims – especially metaphysical and religious claims such as whether or not God, the divine or the supernatural exist – are unknown and perhaps unknowable


So Atheism and Agnosticism answers 2 differents questions.
Agnosticism answers the question:
"what do you know"?
and atheism answer the question:
"what do you think?

So yes, i am an agnostic atheist
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 17:46:27


Beren • apex 
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So Atheism and Agnosticism answers 2 differents questions.
Agnosticism answers the question:
"what do you know"?
and atheism answer the question:
"what do you think?


I like that way of framing the difference.
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 17:49:25

Elroi{IL}
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What is special in Vietnam there are so many secular? It's not really a modern country,,,
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 17:55:27


Жұқтыру
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Communists do not have time for religion.
Openly Secular Day: 4/23/2015 17:58:41

Elroi{IL}
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Oh because communism? Yes, they are usually without religion, as in Russia has a lot of without religion.

Edited 4/23/2015 17:59:01
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