I cant remember exactly which one of these two has this law but Ireland or Greenland have a law that all citizens must take a shooting coarse and if they pass they get a gun. Now knowing that every body has a gun who would rob?

@Polakillo

At least Switzerland don't have immigration problems. Thanks to there direct democracy, their government has to do what the people want. Without direct democracy, the government do not do what most people want.

If other west european countries had a real democracy like Switzerland, then they would also not have any immigration problems. I wish my country was a real democracy...

You are being spoiled. Netherlands is one of the best countries on the planet.

Little Blue, I disagree. Yes, gun possession can be used as self defence but I compare it to using violence to combat violence. I'll keep using simple every-day examples here. Say there's a kid who keeps getting bullied in the playground. Should you give the kid a taser so that the next time he can scare away his bully? No. You try to find out why this behaviour is taking place and you try to put a stop to it so that both parties can be happy.

Same here. Surely peaceful policies leading to a more secure and safer society, is much better than arming citizens and leaving them in a dangerous one? Possession of guns only help address the symptoms of the problem, which is crime and violence, it doesn't solve the roots of this at all. Some amateurish ideas from the top of my head could be a larger police force, promotion of racial equality, stricter laws and penalties or offering counselling and guidance to people with psychological issues?

Not exactly relevant, but I believe gun legalisation is also a reason for Police brutality in the US. Anyone the police approaches is a potential danger and potentially armed, and while I don't approve of the brutality, I can understand why they are often over aggressive in making arrests, they have good reason to fear and thus protect themselves.

I don't think incidents where someone attacks someone with a gun under a fit of rage is rare, but you may be right. Have you got any statistics?

Edited 1/12/2015 19:46:09

I think we should limit the possession of weapons in the United States, criminals can simply buy weapons quantities, and shoot who they want.

One follow-up to Pulsey's point: The majority of gun-related deaths are actually suicides.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/05/24/suicides-account-for-most-gun-deaths/

This on it's own is a significant reason to try to limit easy access to guns. It is much, much easier to kill yourself with a gun, than by using other methods. Perhaps more importantly, if you attempt to kill yourself with a gun, you will most likely succeed in killing yourself, whereas other means are less effective. This is important, because most people attempt suicide as an impulsive act and most survivors regret having attempted to kill themselves.

http://www.businessinsider.com/many-suicides-are-based-on-an-impulsive-decision-2014-8

This is an aspect of this debate that I think ought to be getting more attention.

Edited 1/12/2015 19:28:29

"Look at Ukraine they walk around with shields and hard hats and get massacred."

people from both sides are dead and still dieing, and that is NOT a good thing. Absolutely not a good thing

"Or the French revolution?"
French revolution had no guns in it. Parlament was forcibly closed and some peolpe from there closed themselfs in some room. Newspapers "made mountains out of molehills" and people started wearing some insignia to say, that they support revolution. In a day all of Paris was in those insignia.
Revolution won, constitutional monarchy appiared. "Viva la revolution" with no gunfire

Edited 1/12/2015 19:33:22

Ranek, 15 minute response time is going to do what for you when a meth-head breaks into your house at night? Look at the facts before deciding what the best course of action is.

Within 15 min, the police would have appeared three to five times! Further, I have two doorlocks. and I use them, this is all the protection I need ...

A study by the department of justice found over 1 million cases per year of self-defense with a firearm.

one million cases per year of self-defense with a firearm. impressing, but in a sad way... I would like to see this statistic, do you have a link?

By the way there must be a comparing statistic about murder in different nations. I would bet that america leads it...

Do not go overboard, I'm guessing Colombia in terms of percent

Ranek im pretty sure people can break your door down.

10 minutes, actually, is the average police response time. A lot of people die while the police are on their way. On the other hand, simply having a firearm visible will instantly stop almost any burgler/mugger/assault attempt.

Kleck and Gertz is one of the most thorough studies done on the subject, their estimates ranged from (IIRC) 800,000 to 2.5 million per year.

DoJ paper: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf
Kleck & Gertz: http://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Armed-Resistance-to-Crime.pdf

There are a lot of comparisons between different countries, but the correlation between gun ownership/homicide rates is negligible, and causation impossible to prove. Different countries are different countries.

Homogeneous cultures tend to have much lower crime rates, and most of the US rides right about the median level for crime levels among developed nations. Most of the crime in the US comes from a very small percentage of the population, and is heavily centered in poor, urban areas.

I used to be for gun control, until I actually studied the subject. What works in one country won't necessarily work in another, and gun control attempts in the US ignore the underlying problem and only serve to make it worse.

Ranek im pretty sure people can break your door down.

=D thats true. everything is possible. Even that Oscar Pistorius accidently shot his girlfriend. or america intervenes in the middle east for the sake of spreading democracy. Maybe a killer commando prepares itself, right in this moment to ambush my home and steal my worthless crap, shooting my door into pieces, rapes and kills me afterwards. It is possible, but I doubt it will probably happen.
There is one different between us. You live in fear, I dont! Maybe that depends on the strict laws about guns at my place. =)

Pulsey, you can't compare a childhood argument on the playground to the reality of having to defend yourself against a gang member or meth-head in the middle of the night.

Are you aware of the facts regarding violent crime in the US? Do you know the demographics of the victims and criminals? Do you know where these crimes happen most? Do you know why they happen? Yeah, it would be great to just solve our problems peacefully, if only wishes came true.

If you think you have the solution, I'm all ears.

Larger police forces only help to a degree, and are very expensive. Somebody has to pay for all that. Promotion of racial equality would be great, but the people complaining about racial inequality aren't interested in racial equality, for the most part. They are interested in using the race card to further their political and personal goals. You can't even have a discussion on the subject with more than a few people without the race card being pulled.

Look at the recent protests in the US. A black teen gets shot after committing a crime, and we don't know exactly what happened between him and the officer, and riots/looting/burning happen. Thousands of elderly whites are brutally beaten and murdered by black teens, and it gets written off as a difference in culture. There can be no honest discussion about racial equality in the current political climate.

There are a ton of statistics, too many for me to go over, and I don't really put in the effort anymore. Of all the people I've had this discussion with online, only a few have ever shown sincere interest, and if you have sincere interest, you'll do the research yourself.

For me, it boils down to this. If someone breaks into my home or attacks my family in the driveway at night, I reserve the right to defend my family in any way I see fit. As far as I'm concerned, that person gave up all rights to being treated with kid gloves or given the benefit of the doubt that they'll just take my TV and leave without hurting anyone.

It pains me to read a story in the UK or elsewhere where someone is prosecuted for defending themselves from an attacker. Makes no sense to me why a criminal has more right to his life than the person he's attacking.

Ranek, gun laws don't define culture. I don't live in fear, but I do believe in being prepared.

I have fire extinguishers placed throughout the house. I don't live in fear of a fire, but if one happens, I want to be able to deal with it. Same thing with a burglar in the middle of the night. Unfortunately, in the US, it's not a rare occurrence, even in quieter neighborhoods.

There's not always rhyme or reason as to why one house is targeted over another. The question is, what would the statistics have to be for you to decide you want to be prepared?

If there were a 1 in a million chance that someone attacks you at night, does that concern you? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100? (Almost)Everybody draws the line somewhere.

Black youths killed elderly white?

@Beren

That is a good point, and a very difficult subject. We need less stigma attached to mental health issues, better care especially for youth... however I don't think the solution is to try and ban guns. Even if you could get rid of guns(you can't), what would the negatives be? Who would benefit from the black market created? What crime would be associated with that new black market activity?

10 minutes, actually, is the average police response time.

average .... the lake was 20cm deep in average, but the cow drowned nonetheless. In those cases the police appears within five min, at my place. I have experienced that.

My biggest concern about the guns is the accompanied responsebility you give to the people. armed people find theirselfes in the situation to judge about life and death. I have to admit, that this is a terrifying image.

I really think a demonstration of the murder of the black boy silly, he was a robber what his family says he "was a good boy," I'm the only one who thinks this is idiotic? They were looking for a reason to demonstrate.

Average, because some places are closer to the police, some are further away. Sometimes the police are busy, sometimes they aren't.

In rural areas, the average time for an emergency call can be 30 minutes or longer. There's some truth to the statement 'When seconds count, the police are just minutes away'.

Also, that's assuming best case scenario. If someone tries to mug you on the street, are they just going to stand there while you call 911, and then wait around for 5-10 minutes for the cops to show up?

It's an ugly world at times, and generally only the people who have lived in the nicer parts of it have that vision that the cops are going to always be there. I was assaulted by a group of teens along with my wife and baby one night in Houston. It was in a parking lot as we were coming home from shopping. I had the trunk open and a bag of golf clubs in there, and luckily had time to pull out my putter. To be honest, I'm lucky to be alive. One of them had a knife pulled, but didn't look interested in dealing with my reach advantage at that point.

If I had stopped to call 911, we might not be having this discussion.

Little Blue, are you implying that the best way for people to feel safe and protect themselves is to carry a gun? That is absurd.

I certainly don't want to live in a society where I have to carry a gun to feel safe. I want to feel safe because I know the Police is out there doing their job they are paid to do, because everything that needs to be done to keep the area crime free is being done. The burglar too, should also make the decision not to burgle because its wrong to steal, not because he's scared that the guy he robs will carry a gun.

I want to walk out in the streets feeling as secure as I would even without a gun. The gun, really, is a last, last resort, and one I consider unnecessary anyway.

There are many countries and cities with people of all backgrounds, gun control and very good crime rates, like my home city, Hong Kong. Why should the US be any different? Does the color of their skin, or their genetics make them more violent or criminal at birth? No! It all goes down to how the environment in which they are brought up in that will define their behaviour and morals.

Edited 1/12/2015 20:32:16