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Game creation: 10/2/2021 00:52:10

Roele
Level 63
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Can we put some controls on moderating game creation so tournaments like this are not possible?

https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer/Tournament?ID=45397

Some specifications I would like to point out are below:

Sanctions Card: (?) In 1 piece to reduce a player's income by 100% for 100 turns. (minimum 5 pieces per turn, weight is 0, starts with 50 pieces)
Number of card pieces you get per turn: (?) 5
Maximum number of cards you can hold: (?) 100000

Additionally, I have this player on block but saw his tournament. It would be great if that was flagged or I did not see his tournaments.

Thank you.
Game creation: 10/2/2021 01:00:13


Loxiiv 
Level 58
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what's wrong with this tournament, there's no entry fee. if you don't like it tough luck, but some people are still playing so apparently they like it

can you not bring up your opinion as fact and not make a thread about how people play
Game creation: 10/2/2021 01:08:34

Roele
Level 63
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It's sensible to have some sort of validation on games to promote a good healthy player-base. You can argue where those standards are, but it's impossible for any reasonable person, including the tournament creator, to argue this is reasonable.
Game creation: 10/2/2021 01:13:06


l4v.r0v 
Level 59
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Wrong forum, this should be in Warzone Classic

+1

Creating troll games and tournaments has been a longstanding problem on this site. My very first forum post was a complaint about a player named Sun God who created rigged diplomacy games (he gave himself ridiculous income and set up multi-attack, would go surprise-PE on first turn and would rack up points since they were interpreted by Walight as ranked 40FFA wins). Back then, the general idea was that players were responsible for checking settings before they joined.

However, since last year that philosophy has been phased out in favor of host responsibility, with the Lottery & Rigged Game rules (https://www.warzone.com/wiki/Rules#Rigged_Games_and_Lotteries), where hosts are required to highlight when their games are puzzles, effectively shifting the burden of education onto the host rather than the player.

For consistency, the same logic should be extended to tournaments With the recent trend of card-troll tournaments to grief players- not a novel development, fake lottery tournaments on arduous settings have been around for at least half a decade, but a recent uptick is definitely happening- clearly the system doesn't work when players are expected to figure out the settings. If it did, these tournaments wouldn't fill up and get chat like this:


This is just trolling. If unlabeled rigged games aren't okay, then this shouldn't be either. Shin even makes a perfect analogy- who's read the Warzone Terms of Service? And yet we play the game. It's not realistic to expect everyone to suss out troll settings before joining tournaments designed to waste their time.

Edited 10/2/2021 01:15:08
Game creation: 10/2/2021 01:59:39


bob
Level 57
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Seriously? you honestly don't read the tos before signing up? That entirely defeats the purpose of the tos. They were written so you know all the rules of the site before you break them and get punished. Not reading tos, or by extension the rules of games you join, means you give up your right to have a say in what happens to you. At least, that's my take on what explaining a game means. If the game is not explained to you, then how do you know what the rules are and if the leader is just making them up as they go? A tos lays out the groundwork of how sites work and they're not just made to give the creator a fun project. They are made to predefine the rules so that everyone on the site knows what to expect. Idk, maybe I'm just weird for needing to read everything, but I like to know what I'm getting into before I start.
Game creation: 10/2/2021 02:01:11


Loxiiv 
Level 58
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thank you friendly man 28 for this tournament https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer/Tournament?ID=41899
Game creation: 10/2/2021 02:08:08


Loxiiv 
Level 58
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the real question is, what is a troll game?
is this a troll game? https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=24249980
is this a troll game?
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=27204089
is this a troll game?
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=26406597

as you can see everyone is having fun, just hit the surrender button instead of throwing a hissy fit
Game creation: 10/2/2021 02:22:03


l4v.r0v 
Level 59
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@bob: I doubt you read the ToS, given you just violated them:
It is possible for players to contact each other on the Website. In doing so, player are obligated to only send messages that ... (ii) are neither subjective,..

As you noted, you just made a number of subjective statements:
At least, that's my take

TL;DR: People are generally responsible for knowing what they sign up for, but not when the thing they sign up for is meant to trick them.

In general, Terms of Service tend to be quite expansive (e.g., Warzone's ToS prohibit multi-accounting in Section XVI) but they don't actually constrain service providers' ability to "make up rules as they go along"; service providers still have broad leeway to restrict service for reasons outside the ToS and ToS primarily create obligations on the service user rather than the provider. ToS also contain broad clauses that let service providers change them on the fly. In the case of Warzone itself, both the Rules (see: multi-accounting) and the enforcement of rules (see: the definition of 'spam' and enforcement policy around spam) directly contradict the "common sense" Terms of Service no one actually reads (this is by design and doesn't matter). To date, likely no one has been warned for sending messages that are subjective. Historically, many have broken Section XVII(ii) [the part I quoted], (iii) [damaging to a third party], and (vi) [expanding political/religious/etc. ideology] without any repercussion, because the ToS aren't the rules- Section XVII is clearly a CYA section to keep the site safe if someone on here gets in trouble for something like defamation.

The ToS of Warzone even contradict themselves in a few places- Section IX has license provisions around submitted content that push liability for user-submitted content back onto the author, but Section XIV says mods are presumed to be shared under the MIT license... which pushes liability for user-submitted content away from the author. Who's liable if a Warzone mod somehow sets off the Russian nuclear arsenal and blows up Pyeongchang, South Korea? Section IX says it's the user's responsibility; Section XIV says it's not. (In practice, of course, courts aren't going to take the license and ToS at face value.)

Almost no one actually reads Terms of Service on the internet. In general, it's impractical to do so. In the real world, courts acknowledge this and occasionally decide that buried ToS clauses do not create binding, legally-enforceable agreements. Typically it's your responsibility to know what you agreed to, but not when the other party is deceptive or misleading. The other reality around contract law is that contracts often include things that aren't enforceable (e.g., employment contracts that designate employees as independent contractors, many clauses in rental agreements, pre-nuptial agreements that courts frequently ignore), so as an average user you don't really get the benefit you described out of reading Terms of Service, because it's hard to predict their actual ramifications without a rough understanding of the pertinent law. Most contracts are boilerplate anyway, and court is not a practical avenue for most contractual disputes (see: Farah's rental story).

Going back to the original point, the same applies to buried settings like the card trolling in Rick's tournament. Like a ToS that buries some wild clause, the tournament tricks players by claiming to be something straightforward (an ordinary SE1W 1v1 tournament). If you want to bring contractual agreements into this, then just as a ToS with a buried "by using our service you give us permission to withdraw all the money from your bank account" clause is typically unenforceable (because that buried clause is not part of the user's understanding of what they agreed to), it's not reasonable to blame players for falling for what- as acknowledged by Rick- was intentionally meant to trick them.

The overarching idea here is that people should understand what they're signing up for, generally that is their responsibility, but that's not true when the thing they're signing up for is designed to confuse them. If Rick hadn't labeled his tourney "Small Earth 1 Wasteland (1v1)" and used a buried setting (card quirks don't get highlighted and instead get mixed in with the dozens of mundane settings, like a buried clause in a boilerplate ToS) to trick players, then it would be fine. As it is, the tournament Rick created serves only a malicious purpose to trick and trap players, make them angry (this is by Rick's admission; he's said before he hoped to generate hate messages), and worsen their experience by wasting their time.

I hope the rules catch up with reality.

Edited 10/2/2021 03:22:05
Game creation: 10/2/2021 02:53:42


Rick Sanchez 
Level 59
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this thread is what happens when you don't go outside.
there exists a decline button which you can use, if you don't like it you can just surrender@roele.
I don't actually care about what lavrov says because he writes long ass paragraphs on the most useless things.

I make a tournament under game rules, I invite people, people can decline. it's as easy as that.

touch grass

Edited 10/2/2021 02:53:56
Game creation: 10/2/2021 03:18:34


l4v.r0v 
Level 59
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I make a tournament under game rules, I invite people, people can decline. it's as easy as that.
In this case, players can also just surrender twice to get out of the tournament. You were at least nice enough to not require surrenders to be accepted, unlike Balthromaw's much more aggressive troll tournament (https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer/Tournament?ID=45192).

Thanks for at least having that level of decency. Balthromaw's tournament killed my old laptop (already on its last legs, couldn't take the CPU usage from the 1000 cards). :(
Game creation: 10/2/2021 04:25:26


Loxiiv 
Level 58
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Roele what's this? (if you're not Roele and know the answer pls don't tell)
Game creation: 10/2/2021 12:44:41

[GW] Rob
Level 62
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Its free to enter and you can read the settings.
So what the fuck is the problem? If you are in it you can just surrender. YES, ITS THAT FUCKING EASY!
And if you care about this 2games in your statistics you have a big brain damage.
Game creation: 10/2/2021 13:12:34


Rick Sanchez 
Level 59
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I don't think he should care with that winrate and the fact that most of his games are lottos, what is that tree loxiiv? chestnut?
Game creation: 10/2/2021 16:02:24


Loxiiv 
Level 58
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idk I googled tree and took the Wikipedia image

it's an ash tree

Edited 10/2/2021 16:02:38
Game creation: 10/2/2021 17:06:34


καλλιστηι
Level 60
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https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer/Tournament?ID=41047
I created a tournament called "do not join" with 17 days boot and I posted in tournament chat, that you have 999 cards/ turn. It filled. I created the tournament as a reaction to people who joined Multi-Day game "world war Z" and surrendered turn 1 when they saw their starting position.

If players do not check game settings, they deserve to be trolled. If anybody wishes to create troll settings, I will gladly review it and tell you how to make it even more trolly, feel free to mail me.

Edited 10/2/2021 17:10:03
Game creation: 10/2/2021 17:12:08


καλλιστηι
Level 60
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By the way, your tournament is garbage;
Surrenders must be accepted: No

is a big no-no in troll tournaments.

Edited 10/2/2021 17:14:34
Game creation: 10/2/2021 17:56:56


cj13 
Level 61
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The only game that is kind of annoying is the one with the sanctions because it can become unplayable for a lot of turns but I feel like making a bot that plays for you wouldn't be too difficult. Is this against the rules?


The rest of the games with a lot of cards it's even simpler to play and they can finish in normal number of turns.
Game creation: 10/2/2021 18:03:20


Rick Sanchez 
Level 59
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θανκα φοντ θε υνσυγητ καλλιοτηι, η Γουίλλ ξέρατε ακτερ εποχή τοτησμέντ όμως η γετ ενιγη κοινά.

αλσο η χώρα της μακράς σεξε
Game creation: 10/2/2021 18:09:03


Loxiiv 
Level 58
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ξφησβδξξσηδ γκφξσβ, φξδβφ ξδηδ φξδβφ ξσησ ςλσβκνδ η δξαη, διφ φ είδη γκδηβς κφηφ γτ αιηδβφ ςιηδβ?
Game creation: 10/2/2021 18:24:14


Rick Sanchez 
Level 59
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lmao it actually doesn't make a lot of sense, I used google english --> greek keyboard

Edited 10/2/2021 18:24:23
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