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Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 14:44:34


JK_3 
Level 61
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Suppose you had the following artifacts:



What would you do with them and why?
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 15:10:34

Mr_Perfect
Level 54
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that money cache and supercharger mine, yuck.
id just keep grinding. those are 3 I use primarily.
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 15:13:53


JK_3 
Level 61
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that money cache and supercharger mine, yuck.


Sadly those were the 2 epics i got (1 from dig, 1 from WZIB reward), the 2 useful epics i had to sacrifice a lot for....
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 15:21:35


krinid 
Level 60
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- Buy Idle Time via AP Adv, it's fairly cheap. Use the additional slot with 1 of ACB, TMB, BMB or Speedy Crafters (not sure which one you swap out to make room for Idle Time, and depends on whether you're crafting profitable items or not). This will get you more armies/money.
- Sacrifice Idle Time, Discount Hospital, Triple Strike, Quadruple Strike at earliest opportunity. Quad Strike can be useful but only if upgrade to at least Rare (48%) for the huge territories on some of the final levels with >200B units.
- Upgrade Speedy Crafters to Epic. I'm working on this myself; believe it gets +50%, which is huge.

Curious though, you have Money Cache & SM @ Epic, do you actually use these in WZI levels or just WZIB? If so, Money Cache is an interesting one ... how much does it get you and how do you use it? Any tips/tricks like using SACs for Free Caches to get higher armies?
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 15:25:40


JK_3 
Level 61
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Curious though, you have Money Cache & SM @ Epic, do you actually use these in WZI levels or just WZIB? If so, Money Cache is an interesting one ... how much does it get you and how do you use it? Any tips/tricks like using SACs for Free Caches to get higher armies?


Neither tbh, those are the only 2 epics i recieved, and i've never used either of them. I'm just waiting till Fizzer creates an artifact duplication bug to i can get more epics and sacrifice them...
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 15:47:11


krinid 
Level 60
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Ah, just saw your above comment ... I assumed you had upgraded them to that point and thus found some way to actually get value out of them vs the 16h cooldown. I was doubtful (or maybe hopeful?). Would have been cool if some Active artifacts were actually useful.

It seems that the more you play (post Ascension), and the faster you clear levels, Active artifacts will become less and less appealing, b/c now 16h is often 20%+ of a level clearing speed.

Maybe that's a benefit Ascension could provide ... lowering artifact cooldown time. B/c as limited use (I won't outright say useless) as Actives are now, it's only amplified as clear speed increases.
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 16:01:51


JK_3 
Level 61
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I would still like to get my hands on rare or epic SAC, but for battles only. Even if Fizzer massively improved the active artifacts, their cooldown and the fact that they lock a slot while cooling down still reduces their usability by a lot.

I'm currently using hospital boost + army cache boost + money cache boost when capturing stuff, and running ACB, BMB and either TMB or Idle time (depending on how long i'm gone for). Faster crafters has currently no use for me, since my smelters cant even keep up without boosting the crafter speed.

I mostly keep crafter speed on when items take 30+ mins to craft and my smelters can keep up.

It's interesting that you are suggestion crafter speed to upgrade to epic, since i was considering upgrading TMB. Hospital Boost or Item Values.

Army Camp Discount is one that i'm deff going to sacrifice, since i rarely ever use it. Merc Discount is nice, but only saves 8%, and if i upgrade something to epic with it, i'll probably make more than 8% more money, so that one can go as well.

Not sure which other rares to sacrifice, since the other ones are all quite useful from time to time.
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 16:47:48


krinid 
Level 60
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Agree that Speedy Crafters isn't helpful if you're smelting all the ingredients, but there are several levels with market-profitable recipes, so smelter speed becomes irrelevant, and in those cases +50% from Artifact (working on this) and +50% from the AP Adv will be huge. Some levels don't, and for those you need to work the smelters to make the ingredients for the crafters.

Merc Discount is great for me. Even a meagre 8% over the course of an entire level can save >1T money across all merc purchases. I already have AP Adv +50% so together that makes it 58%. This works well with my +75% Additional Mercs, so I have both more mercs & cheaper mercs, so less armies required from army camps.

Army Camp Discount I'm on the fence about ... it's okay, but only 3% (I have Uncommon) and not sure it's worth raising to 12% Epic b/c my game isn't focused on army camps. Hospital Discount rare 6% I get a lot of value out of though. Will get that & Merc Discount to Epic before Army Camp Discount.

Item Sell Value is my next AP Adv focus, and I have the artifact @ Rare +16%, also good bonus money when combined with Speedy Crafters.

My game is focused on having lots of money to buy Hospital upgrades & Mercs.
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 17:41:34


Master Jz 
Level 62
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For the levels as they currently are, Speedy Crafters would be my first choice for upgrade, with Hospital Boost and Item Values close behind. Army Camp Discount and Idle Time would be my top choices for sacrifice.

However, there hasn't been an update few a few months. Nearly all of the very late game recipes are completely un-makeable (can't get the ingredients in time). You can upgrade market visibility to 50 but there are never more than 7 markets on a level. I'd prefer recipes and markets to be left as they are, but they could change. Any significant changes to them could affect the usefulness of speedy crafters. Upgrading it is a gamble.
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 17:51:49


krinid 
Level 60
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Both true & relevant. Upgrading anything to Rare is a minor to significant risk, upgrading to Epic is a large risk, upgrading to Legendary is a super huge massive risk. Anything can change, and all that investment could be hard nerfed into disappointment.

We already saw Speedy Crafters get nerfed from the 2x level-to-level increases to 10%/15%/25%/35% (not listing Legendary & Insane b/c for most of this, these are not reasonably achievable) ... oh just realized Epic is 35%, I thought Epic was 50% - well that vastly reduces the efficacy of it but maybe still worth it. Legendary is just too much investment required ... 4 Epics could provide a lot of value for just a last +15% crafter speed.

But on some levels ... 15% speed across 15x crafters building Explosive Bolts/Magnets/Circuits/etc could still be significantly profitable.

I would like to see improvement on the recipes though. 80% of the recipes on later levels are outright useless (requires too many ingredients relative to the smelting/crafting time of the ingredients + final item + sale price once crafted).

Edited 7/5/2021 17:53:10
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 18:44:22

Parsifal
Level 62
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Sacrifice: Idle Time, Speedy Crafters, Money Cache, Supercharge Mine, Hospital Disc., Triple and Quadruple Strike.
Keep the rest
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 18:49:39


krinid 
Level 60
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@Parsifal
I'm surprised you're saying to sac the Army Camp Discount artifact? I assumed you'd have this up at Epic since you have an army campy-centric strat. I assume you have the Army Camp Discount AP Adv maxed out (or near it)?
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 19:47:45

Phoenix
Level 21
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I assume that you don't use all the active artifacts and that especially the Common/Poor ones just fall into the category of "just got them and waiting to sacrifice/upgrade them in order to boost my already Rare/Epic artifacts".

I see three strategies in general from this state onward:

1.) If you use (almost) all of them at some point, keep everything as is and swap as appropriate. Here, there isn't much more to say.

2.) Determine the four least used Rares and convert one Rare into Epic. First candidate for sacrifice is probably Speedy Crafter (because of the nerf). The other three depend on your strategy. Idle Time can be replaced by the advancement or if you play at least half a day anyways, idle time doesn't do much. The other two, I don't want to advise you on; check how they benefit you currently. Also, I don't have a clear winner on which one I'd upgrade. Item Value could be a good candidate. Or TMB, but you already use one Epic Money Boost, so perhaps look for something else as the third passive Epic. And you will most likely not sacrifice the Rare TMB, so you would still have one Rare and one Epic Money Boost.

3.) From all your Epics/Rares select one really valuable and from the Rares select two (to four) that you use the most, convert the first candidate all the way to Legendary and keep the other two (to four) Rares for 2nd and 3rd slot (plus two to swap in where applicable). Here, a lot would change - especially you would lose all your Epics (except one, in case you chose one of the Epics as your Legendary) - and hence, a lot will depend on your playing style. The candidate for Legendary could be ACB. The four Rares to keep would for me probably be TMB, ACD, IV, and HB. But you would sacrifice a lot here and not only artifacts. ;)

I'm more of a swapper, so I'd probably choose option 1. Option 2, though, seems viable, too. Option 3 might be too radical for most. If you had one more Rare, you could upgrade one to Legendary and still have one Epic left (but sacrifice everything but the Common/Poor ones). Perhaps then, when you can keep an Epic, option 3 is a bit more appealing.

Edit: @ krinid, if my eyes don't play tricks on me, Parsifal wouldn't sacrifice ACD.

Edited 7/5/2021 19:49:06
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 20:03:41


Z 
Level 62
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Speedy Crafter is great. Do not sacrifice.

Sacrifice Army Cache, Money Cache, Idle Time, and Army Camp Discount to improve Hospital Boost

Do not sacrifice: Item Boost, Speedy Crafters, Hospital Boost, Mercenary Discount

Edited 7/5/2021 20:08:16
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 20:37:33


JK_3 
Level 61
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So based on what's been said so far, the suggestions are generally:

1. do nothing

2. upgrade either Speedy Crafters, Hospital Boost or Item Values, sacrificing the 2 cache boots, idle time and another artifact i rarely use.

Right now, i'm going to stick to 1, and see what my stats are at the end of my current level (China). Since crafter speed is easier to get using AP, I will not upgrade that one to epic. That leaves either Hospital Boost or Item values to upgrade to epic, depending on whether hospitals saved a reasonable % of armies compared to the total armies i obtained.
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 21:20:10


Z 
Level 62
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Note on Crafting Speed, the affects stack inversely unlike other artifacts.

Example:
Base takes 100s to craft

Max AP boost takes 50s
100*(1-0.5)
Can Craft 2 compared to base

Max AP Boost and Epic Craft Speed
100*((1-0.5)(1-0.35))=32.5s
In the same time it takes the base, it’ll produce 3.08. And produce 50% more than just with AP.

35% Crafter Speed = +53.84% Items
(100/(1-0.35)-100)/100
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 21:31:52

Parsifal
Level 62
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@krinid

you are hallucinating.
nowhere have I suggested to sac Army Camp Discount

Edited 7/5/2021 21:43:12
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 21:32:13


krinid 
Level 60
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Your math on the last example is confusing me . . . what are you calculating in that formula? Why is 0.65 on the denominator?

I agree that a 100s craft will take 32.5s with +50% & +35% bonuses from crafter speed AP Adv + Artifacts respectively.

But +35% Artifact alone would cause it to craft in 65s (100s*(1-0.35)=65s, which is unsurprisingly 35% quicker (not 53.84%).
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 22:29:25


asdfgh
Level 20
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After you get one more rare, sacrifice all your rares to get 2 more epics, then sacrifice those 2 epics with the 2 active epic and upgrade Army Camp Boost or Bonus Money Boost. At least then those 2 epics become useful.
Need artifact advise: 7/5/2021 22:35:55


Master Jz 
Level 62
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I'm 2 days into United States. Here's the breakdown for various epic artifacts.

Crafters: 6
Recipe to make: Tin Can
Cost to buy ingredients from the market: 1.7M
Sell price (with Item Values equipped): 20.0M (3.09 M from Item Values)
Profit: 18.3M
Craft time with speedy crafters: 66 seconds
Craft time without speedy crafters: 102 seconds

Tin can profit per second with speedy crafters: 18.3M/66 x 6 crafters = 1.66 M/s
Tin can profit per second without speedy crafters: 18.3/102 x 6 crafters = 1.08 M/s

Here is what various epic artifacts would contribute to my income right now:
Epic Speedy Crafters: 1.66 M/s - 1.08M/s = 580 K/s
Epic Item Values (Speedy Crafters equipped): 3.09M/66 x 6 crafters= 291 K/s
Epic Bonus Money Boost: 166 K/s
Epic Territory Money Boost: 266 K/s
Epic Craft Double: 20M/66 x 12% x 6 crafters = 218 K/s


I run these kinds of numbers on occasion. Speedy crafters is the best currently, but it won't be for long. Overall, bonus money boost is better than speedy crafters on the last three levels. On the middle levels, speedy crafters is the best money artifact for a solid majority of the level. In the first few levels, it's completely useless. The best time to upgrade it is partway through Europe Huge before ascending. The biggest downside to speedy crafters is that you have to do the math if you want it to be useful. Overall, I find it to be more valuable than bonus money boost.
Need artifact advise: 7/6/2021 11:22:22


Z 
Level 62
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Your math on the last example is confusing me . . . what are you calculating in that formula? Why is 0.65 on the denominator?


35% Quicker =/= 35% More Items

The way the artifact works is that it reduces the time required to craft. This is inverse relationship as crafting rate is item/time. So, when you reduce the time, you reduce the denominator. Thus, to find the increase it is 1/(1-0.35)=1.5384 or a 53.84% increase.

This is easily demonstrated with the AP boost of 50%. A 50% boost results in doubling your crafting speed, or a 100% increase.

Additionally, Crafting speed increases are multiplicative with one another, not additive. So.... a 50% AP boost and a 35% Epic Crafter Speed results in 1/((1-0.5)*(1-0.35))=3.077 or a 207% increase over base.

Basically, all the Increase Crafting Speed artifacts are stronger than they appear: (1/(1-x)-1)
Poor=5% = 5.3% increase
Common = 10% = 11.1% increase
Uncommon = 15% = 17.6% increase
Rare = 25% = 33.3% increase
Epic = 35% = 53.8% increase
Legendary = 50% = 100% increase
Insane = 65% = 185.7% increase

Max crafting speed is 50% AP + 3x10% Techs + 65% Insane Artifact
1/((1-0.5)*(1-0.1)^3*(1-0.65))=7.838 or a 683.8% increase
Need artifact advise: 7/6/2021 13:29:33

Phoenix
Level 21
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Let's just conclude that wording and typing can be a mess in this game. When I put together my list of advancements that could have been present (see the wish list thread) I realized how inconsistent they are named (Increase vs Increased and so on) and the explanatory texts aren't that clear, too, from time to time. Sometimes you really have to guess, how exactly something is calculated. The speeds of smelters and crafters is a perfect example for that. In this light, the nerf to the smelter/crafter artifacts seem far more reasonable.
Need artifact advise: 7/6/2021 13:30:39


Z 
Level 62
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Even then, it wasn't really a nerf.

It was the removal of an exploit that did not make logical sense.
Need artifact advise: 7/6/2021 13:44:09


krinid 
Level 60
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@Z
Interesting... it seemed like a ridic claim when I first read it, but you're right ... and the math checks out once I know what you were actually calculating. Over a period of 10,000 secs, crafting an 100s item produces quantity 100, but with +35% speed produces 153.846, which is (obviously) 53.84% more items.

@Phoenix, @Z
What was the exploit? Are we talking about the same thing?

Was the exploit was unequipping the artifact after starting the crafting and still having it craft faster? Has this been "fixed" so that you get the benefit of the artifact for as long as it's equipped? So equip a 35% artifact for 50% of the crafting time provides 17.5% increased crafting speed?

The nerfing, if I'm correct, was lowering the amount of increase from poor->common->uncommon->rare->epic etc from 2x per step to 5%/10%/15%/25%/35% (Epic is 35% instead of whatever it was before, 80%?). Or was there something else?

@Master Jz
Thanks for that ... great info. I find myself doing similar math frequently to know when equipping TMB, BMB, SC, ACB, etc, is better to leave for the next 8-10 hrs.

Edited 7/6/2021 13:45:29
Need artifact advise: 7/6/2021 13:50:31


Z 
Level 62
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You used to be able to swap the artifact in at the last second to rapidly complete the craft and get a boost on the next one.

Example:
You have an E.Bolt at 90%

You equip an Uncommon Speedy Crafter of 15%

The E.Bolt immediately finishes and the next E.Bolt is already at 5%

Unequip artifact and profit


This was not how Fizzer intended it to work, so he fixed the exploit of something in Beta. Not a nerf
Need artifact advise: 7/6/2021 13:58:47

Phoenix
Level 21
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Sure, this was an exploit that was righteously fixed, but weren't the speedup factors also lowered? I remember a point in time were all artifacts followed an exponential curve (1, 2, 4, 8, 16, ... or any multiple of that) and the speedy smelter/crafter clearly don't follow this pattern (anymore) nowadays.
Need artifact advise: 7/6/2021 14:01:49


krinid 
Level 60
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Yes, fixing the exploit and the nerf are 2 different, independent things.

Was the exploit properly fixed though? Or is it just reversed into an extreme punishment now? Thought I saw someone write that unequipping the artifact at any point in crafting means you always need to craft the entire base time even if it was equipped for 99% of the crafting time? Once unequipped, you lose all benefit?
Need artifact advise: 7/6/2021 14:08:28


Z 
Level 62
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Yes, if you unequip it, it goes to base rate. Must be equipped full duration.

As for the rate adjustment, they are listed below (Old first, then new):
Poor = 3% > 5%
Common = 6% > 10%
Uncommon = 12% > 15%
Rare = 24% > 25%
Epic = 48% > 35%
Legendary = 96% > 50%
Insane = 192% > 65%

As Legendary and Insane were game breaking (basically infinite money once you find a Market that can provide Smeltable material), it was kind of needed.

The result was the lower rarities were buffed, and the upper rarities were unbroken.
Need artifact advise: 7/6/2021 14:25:47


krinid 
Level 60
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Yes, if you unequip it, it goes to base rate. Must be equipped full duration.

Yuck ... that means even a small unequip error takes away hours of benefit.

The result was the lower rarities were buffed, and the upper rarities were unbroken.

I wish this change was applied to all artifacts tbh. It makes no sense that Poor/Common/Uncommon offer little to no material benefit, and only Rare and up are truly useful. Doubling is a bad method imho. It guarantees that the early levels are useless, and the late levels are OP or meaningless (Quad Strike > 100%, etc), and middle levels are of questionable value.
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