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Supercamp question: 6/19/2021 23:46:04


John Smith
Level 55
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For ppl who own the $9.99 USD Supercamp, how many days do you think you have saved in total from it? Obviously, not expecting you to know the exact number but if you can give a good guess that'd be nice :D!

example answer to the above question: "Out of the 100 days I've played, this supercamp has most likely saved me 3 days of time thanks to its army boost."


also maybe a rating of 1-10 with 1 being not worth and 10 being must have would be nice too


I know it also gives 400 coins and a Multilevel, but say that you didn't get those, would you still purchase it?
Supercamp question: 6/20/2021 00:12:55


krinid 
Level 60
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Imho, maybe 3-5% quicker max.

Essentially the Supercamp is just another camp in your list but a bit stronger, but also a lot more expensive. Some levels it's cheap at the beginning and you get some decent upgrades quickly, others it's expensive to start so can't really upgrade it for a while, but it's always at least _another_ army camp at the beginning.

But given that many levels have 20+ army camps, overall this isn't a huge increase.

Income from army camps is likely 10-20% of your total income require to clear a level, so let's say this is 10% of your army camp income (a high estimate), it's 10% of 10% = 1%.

So if you have invested heavily in increased army camp production (IACP) AP Adv and upgrade your army camps hard each level, then maybe you can push this up to 5% but I doubt much beyond that. But perhaps folks like Parsifal or Master Jz who have invested hard in IACP could comment on this as well.

Side note ... trying to get "material worth" out of the paid items for WZI isn't reasonable. They aren't priced reasonably, they're priced to make you really want it, and essentially be a financial benefit to the game to continue development. Supercamp is probably the best of them all b/c it's persistent across all levels, so at least it's 1%-ish for all levels going forward. Compare that to for example 10x Time Warp = 1000 coins (same price as Supercamp) which is likely far less than <1% on a single level. Or a 1x Multilevel 700 + 2x Inspire Mercs 300 ... worth more than the 10x TW imho but still not worth a raw $10 (also imho) but you do get some value, and it does support the game.

So if you're going to buy something for WZI, Supercamp is the thing to buy imho, just don't expect it to radically change your game.

Edited 6/20/2021 00:24:25
Supercamp question: 6/20/2021 02:57:49

Toadee
Level 52
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Krinid posts the truth. It's good, but not overpowered. It helps for some levels alot in the beginning but not extremely useful towards the end of most levels.
Supercamp question: 6/20/2021 10:45:56

Parsifal
Level 62
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disagree. It's a great camp.
upgrading the camp to its full potential can be an equivalent of 4-6 normal camps.
right now I'm playing through Roads of Silk and Iron: 139K armies/sec
the SuperCamp gives 31K/sec, so its 22.3%

And it's not just a simple math of how many percent of your total armies it generated at the end of the level, it's also how much faster could you accumulate more armies, with which you conquered territories faster and finished the map quicker.
I'll put it at 10% faster gameplay overall
Supercamp question: 6/20/2021 11:32:18


krinid 
Level 60
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And this is why I called out Parsifal, I suspected he'd have a different perspective on it.

@Parsifal
Can you provide some details on how you got to 31K/sec = 22.3% production & 10% overall faster gameplay? Interested in hearing more. Do you recall the upgrade costs so far? What's your next best camp, what levels are they both, etc? And related AP Adv + Artifacts to get these values. How many territories captured+remaining? I'm also on Roads of Silk & Iron right now (what a coincidence!) and my SuperCamp & next highest army camp are:

- SuperCamp, L3, 2.1B for next upgrade, 3.37K/sec production.
- Vablow, L8, 275M, 3.31K/sec.
- Total army production is 19K/sec with 210% IACP & +40% ACB.

I'm still fairly early in the level, 783 territories left.
Supercamp question: 6/20/2021 13:15:19

Parsifal
Level 62
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Lol.

@Krinid

- SuperCamp maxed (L7) at 31K/sec
- next best are Vindertion and Vablow. L18 and L15 - both give me 11.5K/sec
- total army production 149K/sec with 495% boost

304 territories left.

Another question you should ask yourself. How much does one AC upgrade cost and what is the benefit.
last upgrade of Supercamp cost ~16B, if I remember correctly, and it gave a boost from 21K to 31K (1.6B for 1K armies/sec)
Upgrading Vablow to the next level will cost same 16B, and it will give a boost from 11.5K to 12.5K (so 10B for 1K armies/sec)

1K armies for 1.6B or for 10B, what would you choose?


why do I say 10% faster gameplay? Probable just a feeling. It's difficult to calculate now, before I started purchasing the mercenaries.
I'll do the calculation tomorrow, after I've finished the level
Supercamp question: 6/20/2021 15:51:51


Master Jz 
Level 62
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It's best on early levels, the beginning of levels, and for newer players. It'll help you get to your first dig on each level a little faster, and will increase your max draft size.

The more you upgrade your advancements, the faster the game goes. The quicker you finish a level, the less time your camps have to work. This means that the benefits from camps diminish over time. At this point, only 1% of total armies needed come from my camps on some of my levels. 99% come from other sources. It should be pretty helpful the first time you play through the levels. After that, it's less valuable.

Edit: It's hard to pin down an exact percentage, but it could give a 5%-10% boost over the first 100 days. Over the next 100, it might only be a 2%-5% boost. Beyond that, it wouldn't surprise me if it were less than 1%.

Edit Edit: After some more thought, I think it won't drop below 2.5% long term. This is because army camps are the main source of armies in the first 10% of the level, and the supercamp (even before expensive upgrades) provides a high percentage of that.

Edited 6/24/2021 05:34:20
Supercamp question: 6/20/2021 16:02:58


krinid 
Level 60
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@Parsifal
Of course higher return army/sec for same money is better, but by the time you can afford to spend 16B on that army upgrade, is there enough time on the level to justify the expense anymore? That's the problem I have with SC - it has a few good upgrades, but beyond that there are better ways to spend the scadloads of money each upgrade costs. As per MJz's point, army camps just don't provide a high enough % of total level clearage to spend that money on it compared to mercs/markets/etc. But playstyles may vary ... thus why I asked for your opinion/experience. Not sure where John Smith will fall into the spectrum.

@John Smith
MJz makes a good point though, the more the play, the less you'll get value out of the Supercamp, so if you're going to buy it, buy it now, b/c when you're weakest is when it will provide the most value to you.
Supercamp question: 6/20/2021 17:02:27

Parsifal
Level 62
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I'd argue that the more you play, the better the value.
Look. you upgrade it upto level 7/8 and it just generates you free armies. The longer you play the more armies you are getting for free.

On smaller levels you can upgrade it only up to level 3 or 4. So at the end you will almost certainly be able to max the SCamp before you finish the level.

On that note I want to express my thoughts, that there is no single important feature of the game. You need army camps as much as you need drafting, as much as you need hospitals, mercenaries and mines. When it comes to investing your AP, there is still a question of priority, but the SuperCamp works independently. In its case investing 9.99 once and get a permanent boost of armies, and on the same way support the game a little is a good thing
Supercamp question: 6/20/2021 17:57:10


krinid 
Level 60
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By "the longer you play" I mean WZI in general, after Ascending, not playing longer durations on a single map.

The longer you play WZI in general -> Ascend -> more AP -> finish maps quicker -> less benefit from army camps, Super or otherwise

Interesting, I've only maxed the SCamp once or twice in all the maps I've played with it, but seems like you do frequently, but again, you are IACP-centric, so aligns to your play, whereas I'm more merc-centric.
Supercamp question: 6/20/2021 18:07:32


John Smith
Level 55
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These are all extremely good responses, thank you all for responding with such detailed information!

@krinid, for sure getting the Supercamp as quick as possible is the most valuable/worth decision since the earlier you get it the longer you get to use it! I wonder if it does became worse as you get stronger though, as Parsifal argues it may be better.

The Supercamp is definitely worth the $9.99 though, based on everything said so far.
Supercamp question: 6/20/2021 23:15:50

Parsifal
Level 62
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finished silk roads earlier than expected.
here are the numbers (rounded for simplicity)
Total armies: 130B
Army camp production: 30B
Mercenaries: 45B
Caches: 30B
Drafts: 25B

The mercenaries play no role here, because I purchased them all at once at the end, when armies production didn't play any role any more.

so let's take the 85B.
It's difficult to calculate exactly how many armies came from the SuperCamp alone.

It took me 4 days to complete the level. let's assume I maxed it 2 days ago. So:
31K x 48h = ~5.3B armies which are 17% of army camps production, or 6% of all the armies received. Not bad for one camp!

I'm still tending towards my 10% efficiency calculation.
without the SCamp I don't know whether I'd be still playing that level. Bigger army generation means faster progress overall

Edited 6/20/2021 23:20:52
Supercamp question: 6/22/2021 01:31:06


finding machine-washed cloth
Level 62
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in my opinion, not as math based as others, i bought it. could do without it. too expensive to upgrade.
Supercamp question: 6/22/2021 07:55:21


krinid 
Level 60
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Agree w/fmwc.
Supercamp question: 6/22/2021 09:25:35

Parsifal
Level 62
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well, math doesn't agree with you
Supercamp question: 6/23/2021 21:47:17


krinid 
Level 60
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LOL, was going to say the same to you actually, but decided to just let it go.

But since you mentioned it . . .

It took me 4 days to complete the level. let's assume I maxed it 2 days ago. So:
31K x 48h = ~5.3B armies which are 17% of army camps production, or 6% of all the armies received. Not bad for one camp!

I'm still tending towards my 10% efficiency calculation.
without the SCamp I don't know whether I'd be still playing that level. Bigger army generation means faster progress overall


6% of all armies produced = includes drafts, caches, mercs? And 17% of all armies produced were from the supercamp? Not sure about the first Q, but for the 2nd Q, assume 17% of all armies from army camps are from the supercamp, so how does 17% of something that contributes to 10-20% of clearing a level result in 10% level clearing speed?

The Math:
23% army camp contribution
19% drafts
23% caches
35% mercs

So then 17% of the 23% is from the supercamp = 3.9% of these armies are from the supercamp. So I'm confused as to how a 3.9% increase in armies leads to clearing levels 10% faster. Also keep in mind that in order to upgrade, you're spending large amounts of money and you also have to wait for the armies to accumulate. It doesn't help to just upgrade it, time has to pass for the armies to accumulate. Compared to spending that same in-game money on hospital upgrades & buying mercs which you can use right away to increase your money, find more army camps, etc.
Supercamp question: 6/24/2021 01:40:00

graemes
Level 59
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“So I’m confused as to how a 3.9% increase in armies leads to clearing levels 10% faster”

Uh… this is highly believable. It’s not his fault you’re bad at math dude. Exponential growth is notoriously difficult to ballpark in your head.
Supercamp question: 6/24/2021 02:33:23


krinid 
Level 60
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@graemes
Exponential growth? Are we talking about the same thing? To have exponential growth there has to be an exponent. Supercamp is a straight linear rate, # of armies per sec * time.

Anyhow, let's assume that clearing a level 10% quicker means the Supercamp produces an additional 10% of the total army production required to clear the level. Total production = 130B, so 10% = 13B. His math showed that Supercamp produced 5.3B = 6% of all armies produced. So around 6% quicker clearing speed. (In reality, if the output was really 5.3B of a total 130B, then it's only 4% of all armies produced).
Supercamp question: 6/24/2021 07:39:57

Parsifal
Level 62
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@Krinid

I don't understand why are you counting mercenaries as "produced armies". They aren't produced. there are just sitting there for you to purchase them. They don't have any impact on the early and middle stages of the game. So when I purchase my mercenaries it's the point where I don't rely on army camp production any more.
So the question should be how faster did the SuperCamp brought me to that point.
in my opinion that 6% accelerates the process to about 10% overall, because at every second with the AC you get more armies which means you can progress faster, which in it's turn lets you conquer other army camps faster.

But let me take your side for a moment. You are saying it's only 3.9%. fine with me: it's constant free armies in every level without any AP investment until the end of times. Can you put a price on it?
Or better, think about the AC as a permanent fourth slot artifact.
Better?

Edited 6/24/2021 08:09:46
Supercamp question: 6/24/2021 08:28:04

Parsifal
Level 62
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Now about the SC being too pricey to upgrade:
https://imgur.com/a/DfDNXEQ

Upgrading Gislic for 6.48B to get a boost of 810 armies/sec
OR
Upgrading SCamp for 7.22B to get a boost of 4020 armies/sec

what would you chose?
Supercamp question: 6/24/2021 09:58:22

Olja 
Level 63
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@Parsifal

Why don't you use mercs in the early and middle stage of a level? Ofc they are more expensive at this point than at the later stage because you haven't unlocked some (or all) techs yet.

But early use of mercs allows to expand faster, which pays off in terms of faster income generation (from bonuses/territories), getting earlier access to hospitals, camps and caches.
Supercamp question: 6/24/2021 10:44:14

Parsifal
Level 62
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I do. But only occasionally.

I'm working now on a new forum topic. It will be ready when I finish Europe Huge for the second time. Probably in the beginning of August. I'm preparing an easier way to compare numbers and strategies.
Supercamp question: 6/24/2021 13:36:59


krinid 
Level 60
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It's fascinating how different our playstyles are, army camp centric vs merc centric perhaps is the best way to sum up the difference, b/c I think we both have high hospital use in common (we're both making use of hospitals and maxing them out on each map). It's fair to say that my play strat is something I developed to minimize the dependency on army camps b/c I got tired of waiting for armies to accumulate, so I found ways of getting armies quicker or reducing the # of armies needed (hospitals). Maybe our strats are equally effective. Not sure.

Regarding terminology of "army production" and counting mercs in them: I was actually trying to adjust to your system which I thought including mercs b/c of the stats you posted (# armies from camps, mercs, drafts, caches; you left out JS, hospitals, so assumed that what you posted was what you calculate against). If that's not how your method works, then my bad & my misunderstanding, and just ignore what I wrote above regarding your calcs.

The calculations I actually work with are "armies required to clear a level" which includes army camps, caches, drafts, mercs, JS, hospitals. It's the sum of all of these which make up the total # of armies required to clear a map, and that's what I measure against. And I find maximizing Hospitals is the biggest benefit, so I prioritize that. Buffing hospitals is essentially a reduction of the # of armies required from all the other contributing factors--and most importantly reduces the amount required from army camps, b/c that is the biggest limiter b/c you have to wait to get the armies. JS is the same but it's a fixed value, so other than actually doing joint strikes to get the value from it, there's nothing more need be said about it. I evaluate decisions in this context, not just maximizing value within "army production" from camps, but on "total armies required to finish the current map" and maximizing what brings the highest gains in that context.

So to actually answer your question...
Now about the SC being too pricey to upgrade:
https://imgur.com/a/DfDNXEQ

Upgrading Gislic for 6.48B to get a boost of 810 armies/sec
OR
Upgrading SCamp for 7.22B to get a boost of 4020 armies/sec

what would you chose?

Tbh I'd likely choose neither. I tend to not upgrade army camps much beyond 1B cost (not a fixed figure, depends on the map). In general, if I have that much money, I spend it on hospitals, mercs and sometimes mines if I need specific ores to work towards profitable crafting (to get money to buy more hospital upgrades & mercs). By the time the army camp prices get >1B, I'm typically far enough into a map that upgrading camps doesn't make sense anymore b/c there's not enough time left on that map to get the value from it.

I align with Olja's comment - I prioritize mercs early and mid to get more territory = more money & more buildings (camps, mercs, hospitals, crafters) & caches, etc.

When choosing how to spend money, I estimate the length of time I have left on the level, then calculate the benefit an army camp upgrade will get me in that time vs spending the same money on a hospital upgrade or buying mercs, etc, and almost every time the result is that the benefit of the army camp isn't enough to justify the cost vs the other options b/c there's not enough time left in the level, especially now on my 2nd playthrough and I haven't taken more then 4 days to finish a level yet.

Example:
- Situation: Playing a map, estimate total 4 days to clear, 2 days left, 500 territories remaining.
- Next Supercamp upgrade is your example above, upgrading to 12.5K from 8.48K for 7.22B, so that's 4.02K increase * 3600*48=695M benefit.
- I would prioritize a hospital upgrade that would give me >695M benefit, so a hospital that gave a 'far territory benefit' of >=1.39M.
- I have 2 options to implement this decision: upgrade a hospital upgrade I already have, or use mercs to conquer a hospital I don't have yet. Especially useful when I've used an FB to reveal where the hospitals are, and I can estimate the benefit of the hospitals will bring based on the ones I already have (they increase in value).
- And almost always, hospitals give the better benefit, especially if you count the 'near territory benefits' which buffs the captures near the hospitals, and the "freebee point" where you can capture all territories under the min benefit of all hospitals at 0 cost of armies, which again gets more money from bonuses.
Supercamp question: 6/24/2021 19:52:09

Parsifal
Level 62
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@Krinid,

I'm up to the challenge!
Could you name me your last 5 levels you've beaten and tell me exactly (or approximately) how long did it take you to finish each and every one of them?
(I don't care if it is 2d13h or 2d12h57m - you can round those up)
Supercamp question: 6/24/2021 20:14:50


krinid 
Level 60
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HAHA, it wasn't a challenge, but sure, I'll roll with it. Not sure exactly what this will prove without also measuring pure idle time (not doing anything) vs active clicking/tapping time + power usage, total AP spend vs dead time (time beyond idle limit where the game stops but physical time since level start continues - actually not sure if this is counted in the level time count stats at the end?), 1st vs 2nd playthrough, artifact choice, how many digs you got done + if finished the level with another dig going, map revision levels, etc, but it's an interesting comparison as a starting point for some ballpark comparisons at least.

All these are from my post Ascension 2nd playthroughs. I didn't track anything from Tutorial through KP-X, only started tracking from Feldmere; the early levels aren't likely worth comparing anyhow, they were all between ~2 mins (tutorial) & ~20 hrs or so (KP-X). I would have had one for Reconquest but I accidentally fat fingered a level ABORT on my mobile when I was half way through it.

Roads of Silk and Iron 3d20h
Far Land 1d21h
Breaking Green 2d6h
Geopolitics 1d4h
Copper Creek 1d17h
Sengoku 24h
Feldmere 23h

Would be interested in Master Jz's & Phoenix's times as well.

Edited 6/24/2021 20:29:22
Supercamp question: 6/24/2021 21:06:17

Phoenix
Level 21
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I'd be up for the task but I don't know whether this would prove anything. Remember, I'm still on my first play through, I haven't ascended yet once. So, if you want the numbers, I could calculate them from my level statistics, but they won't be comparable to any of your numbers at all. Still, I feel honored that you thought of me.
Supercamp question: 6/24/2021 21:32:47


krinid 
Level 60
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I thought you had Ascended already ... so yes, won't prove anything yet (I could post my 1st playthrough stats ... but tbh lots of my 1st playthroughs were early early beta so the game was changing too much to be a worthwhile comparison, like finishing USA in 32 hours or something).

So track your stats post Ascension and we'll check back later. (:

All for the study of optimal strategies! lol
Supercamp question: 6/24/2021 21:48:55


Master Jz 
Level 62
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My times were similar to krinid's after my first ascension. Some were faster, some were slower. I don't think I picked up any powers during my second run. I used the powers from daily doors and that was about it.

Edit: I stop upgrading army camps about 10%-20% into the levels and focus on hospitals/mercs/crafters for the rest.

Edited 6/24/2021 22:16:38
Supercamp question: 6/25/2021 06:37:20

Parsifal
Level 62
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@Krinid

of course you can't compare 1 to 1, but you can get some rough ideas.

the first 11 maps (tutorial excluded) are for me the early levels - my guess is that all strategies should work pretty much the same with them.
Were you skipping levels?

anyway here is the comparison


--------------------------- Krinid ---Parsifal
Roads of Silk and Iron---3d20h---- 3d23h
Far Land------------------1d21h----1d14h
Breaking Green------------2d6h-------13h
Geopolitics-----------------1d4h-----1d8h
Copper Creek-------------1d17h-----1d6h
Sengoku----------------------24h------17h
Feldmere---------------------23h------ 16h


I must admit it looks similar (I think differences within 10 hours are insignificant - those are probably our sleep times, or like you named it "dead time") - only exception is Breaking Green - I'm intrigued what could result those time differences....
What I do find interesting, is that I managed to catch you up (I'm not racing you) - you ascended a couple of weeks before me and now I'm in the middle of Orbis and played all the maps without skipping.


I don't think it's fair to compare pre-ascension playthroughs - the AP investment is not sufficient to imply any strategy to its full benefit.

Edited 6/25/2021 10:06:02
Supercamp question: 6/25/2021 16:20:19


krinid 
Level 60
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Agree, they're similar enough that we can say they're on par.

As for Breaking Green, not sure but this might be one of a bunch of days when I was busy and didn't play much, had some dead time (not sure if that factors into the clear time stats though) and if I did return within my idle time limit, all I did was reset idle time (no army camp upgrades, no hospital purchases, no smelting/crafting changes, no sales, no merc purchases, no techs, etc). Not sure if that aligns to when I was doing BG or not.

On my 2nd playthrough, I'm focusing on being more idle (go figure) so when I start a level, I put ACB, TMB, BMB on, activate auto-conquer and then just leave the game & check back every 4-6 hrs to buy camp upgrades (I buy them in early game), change up my smelting/crafting, buy mercs, hospital upgrades, etc ... until somewhere between 30-60% level progress (depends on sleep timing, other daily schedules, etc), then play more actively from that point on. No idea if this will help or hurt my level speed progress tbh ... but it definitely reduces my active WZI time. (Yea, active Idle time, lol). I find that WZI actually takes a lot of active time to play optimally, and I'm trying to reduce that.

Yes, I did skip a bunch of levels after ascending and finished a bunch of the later levels before coming back to do the earlier levels. Come to think of it, I did that on my first playthrough too.
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