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Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:08:31


Johnny Silverhand 
Level 57
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One template, and a template most people have no interest in playing. Weird and unusual templates are fine as options, but they shouldn't be the only option.

Fewer options doesn't help more people join each option when the options are complete garbage, all it does is turn people off from joining at all.
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:09:55


Splat
Level 60
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Starting from the last time slot, CW slots change the number of templates available based on prior attendance in that slot.
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:11:06


Johnny Silverhand 
Level 57
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Which makes sense, except that participation can be down because of the lack of choices. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Few choices, especially when they are bad choices, leads to low participation, which leads to more chance for few/ bad choices in the future.
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:12:12


kynte
Level 42
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Seconding this. The templates in Clan War and indeed much of the Arenas and the fixed templates in the QM rotation poorly reflect player preferences and what players actually play on. If you were to check recent games on this site (by just checking via ID), you'd notice that a whole lot are on SE1W, SEAD, Strat MME, etc., and very few are on COMBOMB, etc.

I used to suspect that Fizzer was deliberately pushing what are popularly known as "cancer" templates (e.g., Multi-Attack MME Light Fog LD) because there was a big player base of casuals that Fizzer had far better information about than the competitive player base does. But after looking at the distribution of activity on Warzone Classic (most activity comes from a small number of accounts, mainly the competitive player base) and the template preferences in games (casuals go for SEAD, not Siege), I'm starting to suspect that this is not the case. Fizzer, if you're reading this, I suggest adopting something like the Seasonal Ladder approach for Quickmatch fixed templates, Arena templates, and Clan Wars templates, and letting the player base communicate to you what templates it likes and wants to play on. The templates you keep selecting are not ones that will attract the most players and help Clan Wars (or Arenas) get optimal participation. Even the out-of-touch competitive playerbase (that can't appreciate the beauty of SEAD) has a lot of signal to offer here.

Edited 3/17/2021 06:13:31
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:13:10


Splat
Level 60
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No. In the QnA session Fizzer had earlier, he said the number of slots is solely based on overall daily attendance.

You can watch the replay here: https://youtu.be/p7BI6Rf7FzU
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:14:55


kynte
Level 42
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Upon looking at the numbers, I don't think Nauz's vicious cycle hypothesis holds.

https://www.warzone.com/Clans/War?ID=1&Timeslot=7 - this time slot had 23 participants
https://www.warzone.com/Clans/War?ID=1&Timeslot=3 - 24 hours ago, we had only 15

Edited 3/17/2021 06:16:57
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:17:02


Splat
Level 60
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@l4v, This slot doesn't affect the next slot, it affects this slot tomorrow
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:18:38


Min34 
Level 62
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I'd personally love to see one slot dedicated to templates from the MTL, what you do with the other remaining templates for that timeslot I don't care too much about, but one strategic option every time would be nice. In the end, the strategic community are the players that will keep going back and that will keep playing CW in the long run.

But with the current templates, I doubt CWs is going to remain popular after its first season, there's just no reason to play when non of the templates make you want to play to begin with.

EDIT: To make sure my comment isn't just negativity. Clan wars is a great idea and has amazing potential, but I am afraid it is all wasted if the templates don't change. I just want to see CW thrive and help the Warzone community grow.

EDIT 2: id personally be fine with adding an extra slot that's guaranteed to be a strat template (say any template on the MTL), but its for members only. That way the membership gets some extra value as well.

Edited 3/17/2021 07:19:15
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:19:31


Johnny Silverhand 
Level 57
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>No. In the QnA session Fizzer had earlier, he said the number of slots is solely based on overall daily attendance.

You can watch the replay here: https://youtu.be/p7BI6Rf7FzU

You're literally not saying anything everyone doesn't already know.

I saw the whole stream. I know exactly how the system works, I'm not ignorant, I'm criticizing it and pointing out why it is flawed.

There is one template available, and it is a bad template. A template few people want to play, which discourages participation. Discouraging participation leads to there being fewer templates at this same time tomorrow, and if it's a bad one then, then participation will once again be low.

Edited 3/17/2021 06:19:42
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:20:35


kynte
Level 42
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So tomorrow's slot will probably have more templates available since this one had increased participation from yesterday. Thanks to all the people who played MME Light Fog MA LD, taking one for the benefit of the community!

Still I bet you participation would be consistently higher if the templates were:
1. Small Earth 1 Wasteland or Small Earth Auto Dist (randomly picked)
2. Strategic 1v1 or Strategic ME (randomly picked, favoring MME)
3. Strategic 2v2 or an MTL template (randomly picked, Strat 2v2 1/4 of the time)
4. <some cancer template, like MME Light Fog MA LD>

Ordered so that if participation dips low, the next slot at the same time will beef numbers up by using the two most popular templates on WZ (SE1W, SEAD), and we won't have depressed participation due to cancer templates at any point. Virtually everyone who plays MME Light Fog MA LD would have played Strat MME, but most players who play MME would not be nearly as enthusiastic about MME Light Fog MA LD.

Cancer templates shouldn't be the only option! Throw something in there that players actually like.

Edited 3/17/2021 06:21:55
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:24:44


Splat
Level 60
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Last slot was SEAD, SE1W, MME LD com, and MA MME LF LD

Which you can check here if you want: https://www.warzone.com/Clans/War?ID=1&Timeslot=6
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:26:20


kynte
Level 42
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Yeah, just look at those beautiful numbers that SEAD and SE1W are able to put up! One of those should definitely always be in the CW rotation for each time slot. After that, you should throw in Strat MME, Strat ME, or an MTL template to attract the competitive player base. Then you should have Strat 2v2 at least once a day because team templates on CW are great and some players live for team games.

And after you have all that, you can throw in cancer templates for dessert.
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:32:01


Splat
Level 60
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At least there wasn't Strat 2v2, like below, that had only 2 people sign up for but didn't happen. Also, in the QnA, regarding the two players at the bottom, Fizzer said that if there are players in one slot that didn't get a game in that slot, they can choose to participate in the next slot without having to wait a day.


https://www.warzone.com/Clans/War?ID=1&Timeslot=2
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:34:52


kynte
Level 42
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Strat 2v2 was popular in time slots 4 (12 players) and 5 (8), though. Maybe underwhelming numbers for CW but that's to be expected- it's got a higher barrier to entry (having another member of your clan join). Strat 2v2 has a weaker case for sure than SEAD, SE1W, Strat 1v1, Strat ME, and most MTL templates as a regular template to have in the CW rotation.

But it's nice to have even if it underperforms since it's the only non-1v1 option.
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 06:38:47


Splat
Level 60
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Yeah, even though they're worth 2 wins, getting 2 of one clan and 2 of another that will actually play is a lot hard to get than the 1v1 templates
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 22:32:05

Rento 
Level 60
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In timeslot 2, hardly anyone knew how 2v2s work and that you need to find a clanmate. It probably still isn't common knowledge. Not the best case to study.
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/17/2021 23:11:01

Fizzer 
Level 62

Warzone Creator
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This thread is nonsense. Participation in that timeslot is actually up.

Day 1, when there were 3 template options, 15 people queued.
Day 2, when there was just this one template option, 23 people queued.
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/18/2021 00:17:10


⚙️t⚙️m⚙️t⚙️n
Level 44
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See, Nauz? I told you your title would get in the way of communicating your point. But we really do not have any empirical data yet to show that so-called "cancer templates" hamper participation in Clan Wars. Should maybe wait a few weeks and then we can visualize it.

Edited 3/18/2021 00:18:49
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/18/2021 00:49:24


Bonsai 
Level 62
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#fizzydontcare
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/18/2021 00:56:57


krinid 
Level 60
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Forget # of participants ... you absolutely need 1 "Quick" template (SEAD, etc). Minimum. Many people just aren't interested in playing a RT game on anything longer than SE.

And not sure why # of templates is based on previous days participation, rather than live, real time participation. This means that if only 8 people played at this slot yesterday, we get 1 template at same time today even if 50 people join the queue. If >10 people join the queue, open a new template and let people swap their picks. If people keep joining, add more templates.

Previous days' participation can be used as a guide to perhaps _Start_ at some # of templates >1, but it should be a hard limiter when you actually have sufficient # of players wanting to play ... just perhaps no on the single template showing.

Just read Fizz's post ... lol @ "This thread is nonsense." So this thread had false facts? Then shame on us for chatting about irrelevant junk.

BUT ... the thought still holds, imho all CW windows need a quick template.

Edited 3/18/2021 00:58:17
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/18/2021 19:23:51

Bobby 
Level 60
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I'm he strategic community tends to feel that SE (1W or AD) is luck. While I feel that skill comes into play much more than people think, the point is that ORDINARY PEOPLE LOVE SE! No template has ever drawn more overall popularity than SE, and it should remain a template. As Fizzer himself (bow here) says that clan wars are for everyone.
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/18/2021 19:24:08

Bobby 
Level 60
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The* is first word
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/18/2021 19:53:49


l4v.r0v 
Level 59
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I think we should just wait 2-3 weeks, then run actual numbers on Clan Wars participation by time slot to see if so-called "cancer templates" might be depressing participation. But from a cursory glance at the last 50 created games (ending in 26203512), it looks like so-called "cancer templates" might actually be popular, especially among RT casual players.

Combined, the non-cancer templates (SEAD, SE1W, Strategic 1v1, Strategic 2v2, SE COMBOMB) account for 21 of the past 31 QM games. Meanwhile, Auto-Imp.Rom. - LD & Light fog has the second most games of any template, and in the non-QM scene we see all sorts of "cancer templates" (weird RoR, IR, Scrabble setups mainly) dominate.

Hopefully we'll have a stronger conclusion from looking at actual Clan Wars data in a few weeks, but for now I can't really find anything that supports Nauz's hypothesis. Players love cancer?

QM templates
Small Earth 1v1 Auto Dist: 7 (26203508, 26203502, 26203474, 26203473, 26203472, 26203468, 26203465)
Auto-Imp.Rom.- LD & Light fog: 5 (26203510, 26203500, 26203482, 26203476, 26203469)
Small Earth 1 wasteland: 5 (26203504, 26203489, 26203471, 26203464, 26203461)
Small Earth Commander and Bomb Card: 4 (26203507, 26203481, 26203467, 26203460)
Strategic 1v1: 4 (26203509, 26203484, 26203466, 26203462)
MME Commanders LD No Cards: 2 (26203511, 26203486)
Rise of Rome 1v1: 2 (26203475, 26203470)
Multi-Attack MME Light Fog LD: 1 (26203512)
Red Dead Redemption: 1 (26203479)
Strategic 2v2: 1 (26203499)

Custom templates
unnamed templates on Rise of Rome: 5 (26203503, 26203501, 26203498, 26203497, 26203493)
lotto templates on Duel: 4 (26203494, 26203492, 26203488, 26203483)
unnamed template(s) on Scrabble: 3 (26203491, 26203478, 26203477)
Antarctica 1v1 on Antarctica Small: 1 (26203487)
celticfringe's Europe 2v2 on Europe: 1 (26203505)
Gotham City 1v1 (V.1.5) on Gotham City: 1 (26203496)
ffa cities on Imperium Romanum: 1 (26203506)
unnamed template(s) on Imperium Romanum: 1 (26203490)
small earth ffa3 on Small Earth: 1 (26203495)
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/18/2021 20:02:14


(ง︡'-'︠)ง let's fight!! 
Level 62
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I dare to say, if there are players that don't know how to surrender, then there are also players that dont know how to uncheck templates in QMs.

Thus, the QMs probably shouldnt be the basement to evaluate template favourits.
(have in mind that the "cancer" templates are fixed templates and nothing to vote for)

Edited 3/18/2021 20:07:09
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/18/2021 20:04:48


Norman 
Level 58
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Since the participation seems sufficiently high, I believe a few more timeslots would do nice. Every 6 hours only can be pretty awkward for people with 9 to 5 jobs. Even if someone is a hardcore player who dedicates 4 hours to WarLight in the evening, there maybe might not be a timeslot open then.

Also 1 minute autoboot isn't so nice IMO.

Edited 3/18/2021 20:07:02
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/18/2021 20:29:20

Bobby 
Level 60
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There are lottos?!?
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/18/2021 20:34:17


krinid 
Level 60
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Also 1 minute autoboot isn't so nice IMO.


I hope it always has at least 1 template with a low boot time and a small map. I'm sure there are many who even if we spend an hour or two playing WZ on a given day, we can't spend 1-2 hrs continuously, and thus other templates just aren't possible for them.
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/18/2021 21:05:37


Norman 
Level 58
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IMO it's bad style when players keep pressing the "skip to end button" and 1 minute boot times pretty much forces that.

Edited 3/18/2021 21:20:50
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/18/2021 21:10:26


JK_3 
Level 61
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Having double the amount of timeslots would really help.

So far, I missed all 4 slot from today cause i was sleeping, traveling, working or eating. And the same thing will probably happen again tomorrow....
Want to know why Participation is down?: 3/18/2021 21:35:00


Beep Beep I'm A Jeep 
Level 64
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I agree with krinid, I like myself some Small earth 1 minute and I think lots of casual players also don't have much patience for their opponent to take 3 minutes analyzing the board
(I mean it has been on QM like that forever)

Edited 3/18/2021 21:38:12
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