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Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 04:05:17

Fizzer 
Level 58

Warzone Creator
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It's time to create a poll on changes to the ladders!

Soon, I will create a poll so that ladder-eligible players can vote on changes they'd like to see made to the 1v1, 2v2, seasonal and RT ladders.

Below I've listed the questions that will currently be on the poll. If you have something else you'd like to see added, please post it here. This is your chance to enact ladder changes!

For the 1v1 and 2v2 ladders, I prefer to make targeted incremental changes, not complete overhauls. Also, I can't guarantee that everything that's voted highly will get done, since some things require code changes that need to get scheduled alongside other work. However, I will make my best effort.


  • 1v1 ladder: Change the map to Modified Medium Earth, or keep it on Medium Earth.
  • 1v1 ladder: Change the move order to cyclic, or keep it on random.
  • 1v1 ladder: Increase the number of games required to achieve a rank, or keep it at 15.
  • 1v1/2v2 ladder: Require players complete X consecutive games to achieve a rank, or keep it as it is where they just need to finish X games total.
  • 1v1/2v2 ladder: Switch to TrueSkill or keep using bayeselo.
  • 1v1 ladder: Reduce matchmaking range or keep it at 30%.
  • 1v1 ladder: Change luck modifier to 0% weighted random, 0% straight round, or keep it at 16% weighted random.
  • 1v1 ladder: Increase the blockade multiplier to 500% like the 2v2 ladder, or keep it at 351%
  • 1v1/2v2 ladder: Increase the time it takes for games to expire, or keep it as it is.
  • 2v2 ladder: Change the map to Modified Medium Earth, Heavy Earth, Final Earth, or keep it on Medium Earth
  • 2v2 ladder: Reduce the multiplier on the blockade card, or keep it at 500%
  • Real-time ladder: What templates you think should be removed
  • Real-time ladder: What templates you think should be added
  • Real-time ladder: Should the total number of templates stay at 10, be reduced, or increased.
  • Seasonal ladder: What features are you okay with seeing used occasionally: Randomized bonuses, local deployments, no-split, auto-distribution, free-for-all games, random teams, multi-attack.
  • Real-time ladder: Show number of players online, but not who.


Please also post here any templates you'd like to see added to the real-time ladder, so I can include them in the poll.

Just so it's clear: You don't need to answer these questions in this thread. The official poll will be created in a new thread with these questions, and then you'll have a chance to officially vote. This thread is here to suggest changes you'd like to see made to the ladders that aren't listed above.

Edited 8/25/2014 18:00:41
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 04:06:53


myhandisonfire 
Level 54
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Who will have the right to vote?
Everyone? Only Members? Only players with ladder access? Every Account? Every Ip?

Edited 8/25/2014 04:08:09
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 04:13:33

Good Kid 
Level 56
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I'd like a poll for matchmaking. I think 30% is far too big for the 1v1 ladder. It was sensible when the ladder had fewer players, but it's not needed anymore, a smaller gap would force people to earn the right to play the top players, and not make their ratings get artificially inflated early on by doing so by game 4. It'd also make it easier for high ranked people to maintain high ranks because they wouldn't get crushed by the random luck-caused upset against an opponent they never should have had to play.

Edited 8/25/2014 04:22:05
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 05:03:07


The National Socialist
Level 54
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oh wow. and I JUST got to ladder level
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 05:07:01


[WM] แต€แดดแดฑ๐“•๐“ป๐“ฒ๐“ญ๐“ฐ๐“ฎ 
Level 59
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WOW
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 05:23:15


Garrett
Level 56
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First of all I'd just like to say thank you Fizzer for taking the time to poll the community regarding changes in the ladders. While I don't have any personal changes to suggest, I believe others were recommending a change in the ladder rating system, if I'm not mistaken? Assuming that doesn't count as a complete overhaul to the ladders, someone else will probably suggest a more specific change if that's the case though.
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 06:37:00


[WM] Gnuffone 
Level 60
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Fizzer!!!! Finally =) =)=) This sound supergood! Really. Let's start to speak.
I will divide suggestion based in each ladders:
1v1:

-change from 16% weighetd radnom to 0% weighted random is a must: the gameplay DOESN'T change, but the luck involved decrease. In this way, you don't make a big revision, but you just decrese a (minor?) problem: the luck. Explanation: in some attack, in this way, you avoid the chance to fail: 13v8 is an example. Ladder is a competetive event. shouldn't have luck as major role.
-Map: change from ME to MME is pretty the same. Heavy hearth is again based on Medium Earth template. Any chance to change map? If not, Fizzer pls write it.
-cycle/random move isn't objective imo, so i abstain to say everything. Explanation: depends the map/template: sometimes is better keep random moves, soemtimes is better cycle. I'd say, this is the last thing to decide IF we change template. (i add, cycle moves work well with 0% straight, that is not gonna happen?)
-increase number of games is a must. Someone would say 20, someone 25, someone 50. I think, a good compromise would be 25 or 30. Require a % of total players have one big issue: let's say 100 player are in, you are ranked with 20 (20% assume) and 10 more players join: at that point you need 2 more games: this would create instability in the ladder.
-about X consecutive number have the opposite problem: let's say i met in a ladder game one player i hate, and i am doing pretty bad. The change i stall to him is high. This could happen, no?


2v2:
-reduce or increase the blockade make 0 sense, isn't that important. Most of games aren't decided by a blockade anyway.
-same for 1v1 but here is different: i really think, change to an Eu template (like SzEuropa http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TemplateID=267813) would be the best. I am sure, that if you put in polls to change from ME to this Eu template, it will win the poll!


Seasonal ladders:
-randomize bonuses and random teams are the top.
Randomize bonuses bc make every games a bit different, more fun, more strategy, etc.
Random team have a problem: could happen, we teamup with a player we don't want play with, etc. A seasonal Fixed teams would be better.



RealTime ladder:
Template i want remove:
Season 3: the 5v3 fails sometimes, sometimes 4v3 work. 3 neutral involved a lot of luck. It can't work in long term. If the 2 player have similar skill, often the game is decided by a luky 4v3 or a unlucky fail 5v3.
Season 7: this template is bad bc is like rock paper scissors: there isn't a best strategies:
often the game is decided by position after picks. The start without army doesn't allow you to counter opponent properly and this make games with lot of luck in picking stage.
Season 12: the worst template i guess. Everyone i speaked with, say is bad. nothing else to say.
season 11: if for the above 3 season i being objective, i am sure there i am more subjective in judge this template, infact i think there are some players they like this template. I don't, bc i think LD reduce the control of the games you have in. Also we already have season 1 and 2, too many ME based template aren't good imho.


Templates i would add:
china 1v1 http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TemplateID=367537
heavy earth 1v1 http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TemplateID=506727


Any chance to add a 3v3 ladder? http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TemplateID=461243

Edited 8/25/2014 08:07:02
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 06:47:12


[WM] Gnuffone 
Level 60
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Who will have the right to vote?
Everyone? Only Members? Only players with ladder access? Every Account? Every Ip?

@myhand, he already say:
"I will create a poll so that ladder-eligible players can vote "

Edited 8/25/2014 06:47:21
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 07:18:38


Latnox 
Level 60
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Yay, I very like the idea of those changes :)
What I would like to see:

- change 16% WR to 0% WR luck in 1v1 ladder. As Gnuffone mention, attacks like 7v4 that can fail is really a pain in the ass.

- MME is also more balanced, than ME, so this change would be only for good.

- cycle, random move order isn't so important IMO. I could even stick to random, to give it at least a little bit of randomness :)

- Map changes in 2v2 ladder could be nice. I personally don't like Europe too much. But I don't have my favorite 2v2 template though.

- Seasonal ladder with fixed teams also sounds interesting.


And a small offtop: other maps in Autogames :) Maybe the ones from seasonal ladders ?
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 09:04:39


[WM] Gnuffone 
Level 60
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i forgot to say, that maybe is better decrease from 10 to 8 the number of template for realtime ladder.
I also suggest, to put all templates 0% luck:
if is 16% weighted random, it should became 0% weighted random,
if is 16% straight round, it should became 0% straight round, in every ladder.
I already explained why.
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 09:11:47


The National Socialist
Level 54
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So if the 1v1 ladder changes, will you be changing the 1v1 auto games as well?
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 09:19:38


Krzysztof 
Level 66
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hat maybe is better decrease from 10 to 8 the number of template for realtime ladder.


looks like good question for a poll - personally i would opt for more templates
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 09:23:07


[WM] Gnuffone 
Level 60
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yes i know.
but each time i think about what would happened.
most of the player i speak with, they say 2/3 templates atm sucks, that's the reason they don't play.
If we increase the number of templates, very good player will not have any problem, but the average player, will not player bc he wont learn 15 new templates.
That's why i say, 8 templates could be better, bc i am sure, at that point, more player would be happy to play.
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 09:24:36


Timinator • apex 
Level 64
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RT-Ladder
http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TemplateID=498960 Battle Islands V, MA
http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TemplateID=426219 GME III
http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TemplateID=426217 Treasure Map
Throw out Season I or II (too similar, i prefer II out)
Change Luck on Season III to SR, then neutrals of 3 are ok
Season XI: Drags too long often, replace with other LD-Template like France LD http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?TemplateID=475476


1v1 Ladder: Reduce Luck from 16% to 0%. Failing 7v4 sucks, getting thrown out 11v8 too. I'd still prefer to throw out 1v1 or 2v2 succeses too, but this would include a change to SR.

2v2 Ladder: Change Map. More than 2 Spots per person would be necessary to decrease pick-lottery, but M(M)E is too small to provide 12 picks.

Seasonal: When will MA get promoted there? Existing quite long now, but didn't get a season for it. I dislike of random teams 2v2, there are players people don't want to team up with for several reasons.
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 09:30:14


The National Socialist
Level 54
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Switch 1v1 and 2v2 to TruSkill
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 09:31:12


[WM] Gnuffone 
Level 60
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we could also consider, put trueskill meant in all ladder. is this possible fizzer? or there are some code problem?

@timi, MA is pretty hated by most of player :P

Edited 8/25/2014 09:31:30
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 09:34:49


Timinator • apex 
Level 64
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@gnuffles: so was poland-map. so your argument is invalid :P
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 09:40:53


[WM] Gnuffone 
Level 60
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but this time we have the chance to vote. so a hated setting/template will not get voted.
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 09:43:59


Math Wolf 
Level 63
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* Agree with others on polls with options 16% SR, 0% WR, 0% SR for 1v1 and maybe 2v2 ladders.

* 500% blockade in 1v1 (rather than reducing the blockade in 2v2)?

* TrueSkill vs BayesElo for the other ladders. It has shown to work in the RT ladder after some initial complaints and it would help a bit against stalling so players may have warmed up to the idea by now?

* If the number of games required for a rank increases (which I would support), the time to expiration should increase accordingly. As an example, I'm always between 15-20 games while I play 5 games at a time, it would be near impossible for me to keep a rank at all times if I need 20 games in 3 months. For people who prefer to play less (i.e. 2 games), this would be even more problematic.
Of course, if it's about "finished games" and not "unexpired finished games", this remark can be ignored, but this doesn't solve the problem. Players can still wait until all their other games have expired.
Note: TrueSkill would help since the number of games required would only be needed when someone just joins the ladder anyway.
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 09:57:57


[WM] แต€แดดแดฑ๐“•๐“ป๐“ฒ๐“ญ๐“ฐ๐“ฎ 
Level 59
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  • 1v1 ladder: Change the map to Modified Medium Earth, or keep it on Medium Earth.

    Modified Medium Earth gives far bigger variety of strategies, so i would definitely vote for it, as MME gives more interesting ladder

  • 1v1 ladder: Change the move order to cyclic, or keep it on random.

    keep it random. let's keep Warlight being a game, and not require to calculate everything

  • 1v1 ladder: Increase the number of games required to achieve a rank, or keep it at 15.

    increase it. Definitely. Even increase to 20-25 would most likely by far diminish stalling and gaming the ladder.. Especially combined with the next:

  • 1v1/2v2 ladder: Require players complete X consecutive games to achieve a rank, or keep it as it is where they just need to finish X games total.

    Definitely require finishing consecutive games. It will by far help keep calculate true ratings instead of the current inflated ratings achieved by stalling.

  • 2v2 ladder: Change the map to Modified Medium Earth, Heavy Earth, or keep it on Medium Earth

    Both medium earth and heavy earth have a rather limited strategy to them.. is there a chance to move outside of the limitation? there are various China maps suitable for a competitive 2v2 play, or szeuropa/guiropa templates.. While MME would probably be interesting, if we can't pick other than the three provided, I'm not sure if i would not prefer heavy earth just to keep a variety.

  • 2v2 ladder: Reduce the multiplier on the blockade card, or keep it at 500%

    imho the multiplier is fine.

  • Real-time ladder: What templates you think should be removed

    i would have to think about it some more..

  • Real-time ladder: What templates you think should be added

    i would have to think about it some more..

  • Seasonal ladder: What features are you okay with seeing used occasionally: Randomized bonuses, local deployments, no-split, auto-distribution, free-for-all games, random teams.

    Randomized bonus values are definitely my favourite setting, pity it is not available in create game section. I would love to see it back in play.
    LD makes the gameplay well.. boring imho. Especially fro the winning player, when his enemy does not understand his position for weeks..
    no-split is interesting.
    auto-distribution.. The whole game is far to dependant on picks to introduce autodist to a ladder. The only exception i can think of is utilizing the geometric simple maps, where position is not that important, but even there, the impact of safety or map coverage may be to big. I'd say no to autodist, unless there's an algorhythm validating position balance which as i assume is not gonna happen.
    FFA - NO.
    random team ladder - nice idea. I would definitely try a 2v2 or 3v3 random team season.

  • 3v3 EU ladder (random warlords, no cards)

    PLEASE, PLEASE, PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE :D
Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 09:58:31


[WM] แต€แดดแดฑ๐“•๐“ป๐“ฒ๐“ญ๐“ฐ๐“ฎ 
Level 59
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  • BTW - 0% weighted random luck all round.

  • as for templates - i would opt for more templates AS LONG as they are PROVEN to be competitive (balanced)

  • TrueSkill may be another solution for the problem of gaming the ladder


  • Edited 8/25/2014 10:00:54
    Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 10:04:13


    szeweningen 
    Level 60
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    1) TrueSkill for all ladders (it is expiration vs no expiration so it should be a fundamental question)
    2) If a no expiration system is not voted in I want to propose the middle ground between current system and question #4 about consecutive games. Implement penalty point for first X games. For a person who does not stall and wants to get ranked it might be sometimes hard to finish exactly their first 15 games if they play slowly. Possibly 1st non-expired game can be worth -150, 2nd -140 and 15th -10 and all penalty points vanish when you finish first consecutive 15 games. Of course points distribution is flexible, it could easily work with 20 games requires with first worth -200, last worth -10. Still this is a half-measure, no expiration and TruSkill are the solutoin.
    3)Europe 3v3 Ladder? :)
    4)16%--->0% Without changing to sr it won't change the gameplay. On 1v1 ladder I don't recommend 0% sr, but )5 wr is always better than 16%
    5)Poland 1v1 for rt ladder?
    6)Turkey ld should go from rt ladder, EA&O map has to be changed to 0% (5vs3 fails are too much)
    7)2v2 ladder different template altogether. 2 starts, a massive blockade and 16% luck gives a very bad template. Please let us know if you are automatically limiting 2v2 ladder to earth maps (most competetive templates use maps like europe, china, gme etc.) so that we can work on a competetive template for 2v2 ladder on one of those maps.
    Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 10:11:43


    szeweningen 
    Level 60
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    Additional rt ladder template:
    http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=6847871 Ancient greece II LD
    That one should replace Turkey LD
    By Poland 1v1 I meant last season template
    Also another idea for 2v2 ladder:
    Make it like i Plan Champions League and how rt ladder works, use 5-10 most competetive templates and use them randomly every game.
    Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 10:18:48

    Pulsey
    Level 56
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    I'm too old for 1v1 and 2v2 ladder now, but a new 'team ladder' of any kind would be great! :)
    Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 10:35:58


    ps 
    Level 60
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    thumb up for polls but i feel handling the cheating using alt accounts on ladders might be more important at this point.
    Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 14:04:41

    Fizzer 
    Level 58

    Warzone Creator
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    Great suggestions! I edited the top post to include the items everyone has brought up.

    Map: change from ME to MME is pretty the same. Heavy hearth is again based on Medium Earth template. Any chance to change map? If not, Fizzer pls write it.

    The 1v1 and 2v2 ladders ideally should stay on some sort of world map, just to fit in with WarLight's basic theme of "conquering the world." Any map that shows the whole world is eligible.

    So if the 1v1 ladder changes, will you be changing the 1v1 auto games as well?

    Yes, the changes would affect the Strategic 1v1 / 2v2 templates everywhere they're used.


    New ladders, such as 3v3, are certainly possible but I want this poll to focus on changes to the existing ones. Honestly, the biggest reason 3v3 ladder hasn't happened yet is because I'm not an experienced 3v3 player so I'm not really qualified to make it. I keep hoping someone will make a CLOT one to iron out all the kinks. If I had more time I'd make a CLOT one myself and try to hand it off to someone.
    Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 14:10:21


    [WM] Gnuffone 
    Level 60
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    The 1v1 and 2v2 ladders ideally should stay on some sort of world map, just to fit in with WarLight's basic theme of "conquering the world." Any map that shows the whole world is eligible.

    That's a good answer for 1v1 ladder, because is the most important ladder (and he also have the highest number of players).
    But for 2v2, make no sense. In fact in realtime and seasonal ladder we played some maps that don't shows the entire world. Is this your last word? really no chance to put in polls Eu maps/templates? :(

    About 3v3 ladders: wouldn't be enough for you just copy all the code from 2v2 ladder and try a 3v3 ladder? i don't understand the problem you have with 3v3. It doesn't work like 2v2? you need to redo all the code?

    Edited 8/25/2014 14:11:46
    Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 14:28:57


    The National Socialist
    Level 54
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    just to fit in with WarLight's basic theme of "conquering the world."
    I have found my purpose in life......all hail fizzer *bows*
    Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 14:41:43


    โ˜จ DriveByPsy
    Level 56
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    There are tons of maps and templates in WL nowadays, a lot of players have been involved in recent years to enrich the game of new playgrounds and possibilities via mapmaking and the creation of new competitive templates. Keep focusing ladders around the "ME strat" sounds like a waste to me. Opening a 3vs3 Europe ladder would be nice and popular. Same for a new map and template concerning the 2vs2 ladder, China or Szeuropa for example would fit nice and it would really bring something new and attractive, both are balanced and selective templates.
    Ladder changes polls: 8/25/2014 14:52:46


    professor dead piggy 
    Level 59
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    weighted round replaced by sraight round
    Larger blockade in 1v1 450%ish
    dont change to MME
    smaller reinforcement card +3ish
    no 3v3 EU ladder, it would suck and be a waste of your time
    no trueskill, games need to expire
    let people get ranked after 15 games unless they would be put in top 10, in which case make them complete another 10 and make them finish all the original 15 before getting ranked.
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