I think this evidence that religion is a human creation.

Exactly! God would be capable enough to make an irrefutable religion.

Edited 2/8/2020 15:14:45

[REDACTED]

Edited 2/9/2020 01:49:51

I think it's best people just agree to disagree on religion and science.

@Aura That comment was directed at Njord in reference to the number of biblical manuscripts.

@ganymedes "Flawless religion: A religion that doesn't have a single criticism against it or at least gives satisfactory answers to criticisms. And the religion should not have undergone any reformation."
Every ideological or philosophical belief, and even many scientific facts have criticisms. I guess the earth isn't round then, since flat earthers exist. I guess no economic system is preferable, since they're all criticized by different people. If God wanted robots, He would've created robots who never choose or criticize anything. Instead, He created humanity to be His children. Hypothetically, if Christianity were true, the bible blatantly says that the way to God is narrow and few find it.
The historical reformations that Christianity underwent weren't to bring new ideas, but to restore old beliefs that those in the early church held, eg. salvation by faith alone.

Thank you for the clarification. My bad.

many scientific facts have criticisms

Scientists appreciate criticisms and try to find and give an appropriate answer. Religious texts don't.

I guess the earth isn't round then, since flat earthers exist.

With scientific discoveries, it's proved that earth is a sphere not round or flat. Religions are different than science and aren't proved yet to be true.

I guess no economic system is preferable, since they're all criticized by different people.

Again, you can't compare religion with economic systems. Economic systems are considered by how good they are, you can't do the same thing with religion.

If God wanted robots, He would've created robots who never choose or criticize anything. Instead, He created humanity to be His children.

Then, why does he want all of us to do what he says? I wouldn't do this to my children.

Hypothetically, if Christianity were true, the bible blatantly says that the way to God is narrow and few find it.

Sounds predetermined. So unfair, negative and elitist from this lawful god.

why would the Bible question criticism. There is a word for this: Heresy. science and religion are not the same, science explain rules of earth and religion explain rules of after death. trying to compare science to religion is plain wrong. people believe they are different planes of existence. although there is no proof it is something people are allowed to believe in it is their right. if I think adolf hitler was a hero it is my right. (Disclaimer: he was not he killed over 6 million Jewish people alone. 10s of millions total)

comparing science to religion is dumb and hypothetical, and wrong.

this thread was nice and non threatening and here are all these people spewing hate. this just makes Pepe and the rest look right

Edited 2/9/2020 22:11:58

@Marcus, nice to see we both have the same thoughts about how Hitler was not a hero!

@ganymedes "Scientists appreciate criticisms and try to find and give an appropriate answer. Religious texts don't." There's this thing called Christian apologetics, which examines criticisms and gives answers to them.
With regard to the flat earth and economic system comment, I was pointing out that your standard of religion needing to have no criticism to be true is absurd.
God wants us to do what He says because He wants our lives to prosper (not in the material sense)... the same way a father has the best intentions for his children. The difference is, this Father is all knowing, so it would be stupid to not do what He says. He also gives us the Holy Spirit to enable us to do what He says... it's like you taking a test with the teacher sitting right beside you, helping you with the answers.
"Sounds predetermined. So unfair, negative and elitist from this lawful god." What's unfair is the fact that we're even alive in the first place. It's unfair that Jesus had to suffer so that my sins could be forgiven. It's unfair that He took our place on the cross. It also says that those who seek God with all their heart WILL find Him... the problem is, most people don't want to.

Division 1 has moved back from the frontline for a rest, Division 2 moves forward! Thanks Pepe! I'm a bit busy at the moment for big responses.

"God wants us to do what He says because He wants our lives to prosper (not in the material sense)... the same way a father has the best intentions for his children. The difference is, this Father is all knowing, so it would be stupid to not do what He says. He also gives us the Holy Spirit to enable us to do what He says... it's like you taking a test with the teacher sitting right beside you, helping you with the answers."

Then why give us free will at all?

I am referencing Emperor Cacaos forum thread "Free Will Paradox".

There's this thing called Christian apologetics, which examines criticisms and gives answers to them.

So, how do they explain these?

1. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality.....[Corinthians 6:9]

Why homophobia?

2. The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox.[Isaiah 11:7]

This was supposed to happen when your messiah I.e. Jesus came.

because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.[Eph. 6:8]

Is Paul giving consent to slavery?

It is a shame for a woman to speak in the church. [Cor. 14:34]

Why not men?

I remember Ricky Gervais quoting:

It's almost as if the Bible was written by racist, sexist, homophobic, violent, sexually frustrated men, instead of a loving God. Weird.

...it's like you taking a test with the teacher sitting right beside you, helping you with the answers.

The problem with this statement is that I am obviously sure that there is a teacher present right beside me, I can see them hear them touch them. Not god.

It's unfair that Jesus had to suffer so that my sins could be forgiven.

Your god suffered? Wierd.

It's unfair that He took our place on the cross.

I didn't say him to take my place. And why is he a 'he' and not 'she'?

It also says that those who seek God with all their heart WILL find Him

Why do we have to find him, why can't he give obvious signs of his presence?

the problem is, most people don't want to.

How do you predetermine this? Again, why do we have to find him?

@Marcus Some Christians (Calvinists) don't believe in free will... they argue that we are either slaves of sin or slaves of righteousness.
Would you rather have a child who obeys everything you tell them to all the time because they're forced to, or a child who obeys you because of their love for you?

@ganymedes This is probably my last reply to you because this argument is useless. If you genuinely want to learn about God, there's a great Indian pastor named Zac Poonen you can look up on Youtube. If you just want to argue, there's no point.
1. Sexual immorality is a lot more than just homosexuality, yet it's always singled out (by Christians and atheists alike). As to why... look at the degeneration of Western society in general since the 1960s... can't get more clear than that.
You forgot to quote verse 11, "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
2. A simple commentary will explain #2: https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/isaiah-11-7.html
3. I'm surprised you're using that verse in support of slavery, I thought you'd use others. Let's see what the next verse says, and you tell me if Paul is condoning slavery: "And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him."
Exodus 21:16 - "He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death."
(Real) Christians fought to abolish slavery, eg. Charles Spurgeon: https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/blog-entries/the-reason-why-america-burned-spurgeons-sermons-and-sought-to-kill-him
If you want a more thorough examination of slavery in the bible: https://youtu.be/b3KrEGWE-g4?t=53
4. "Why not men?" Men and women have different roles in the church and society as a whole.

His presence is obvious to those who seek Him with all their heart. I "predetermine" this by what I see people doing in their lives and from my own experience. God has revealed Himself:
Rom. 1:20 - "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
Rom. 2:14-15 - "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,"
Heb. 1:1-2 - "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world."
Etc...
Yes, God suffered, because only an infinite being who took on human form could take the eternal punishment of everyone's sins.
God is a he because He has masculine traits. The same way the church is described as a bride... it has feminine traits.

This is probably my last reply to you because this argument is useless.

Damn, I wanted to argue more...this time philosophically, but gg anyway. Had a good time arguing you. I guess I should go back to the hibernation mode. Hoping to see you soon in another argument.

this argument is useless

I couldn't agree more.

^^^^^^^. It will keep going on and on.

Yep. Partly why I stopped to take a breather, as fun a debating was. Really, this kind of discovery (finding out whether the Bible & Christian faith is true) really can only be done by the individual, and debating rarely, if ever, actually helps. The interesting thing about debating is that no matter how one-sided it is, the losing side will almost never be persuaded to the other point of view - the only people whose opinions could be influenced by a debate are the people watching and not taking part. I find it interesting.

However, I must address one more small thing that gany said and Pepe partly addressed. The homophobia issue.
Now, homophobia is hating on gay people, right? Now, the scripture gang quoted does not say we should hate gay people; on the contrary, Jesus' teachings all say we should love everybody, even our enemies (of course, this excludes THE Enemy.)
What the scripture does say, however, is that homosexuality (among other things, as Pepe pointed out) is a sin, and as such homosexuals who have not repented will go to hell, along with everybody else who has not repented of their sin and accepted Jesus as their Saviour The Bible is not singling out homosexuals; let's be honest, it's homosexuals and others who single themselves out from that verse. I hope that makes sense. Long and short of it is, that if I meet a gay person, I will do my best to love them like we are commanded to, however I will not condone their sin.

I didn't want to continue but;

What the scripture does say, however, is that homosexuality (among other things, as Pepe pointed out) is a sin, and as such homosexuals who have not repented will go to hell, along with everybody else who has not repented of their sin and accepted Jesus as their Saviour The Bible is not singling out homosexuals; let's be honest, it's homosexuals and others who single themselves out from that verse. I hope that makes sense. Long and short of it is, that if I meet a gay person, I will do my best to love them like we are commanded to, however I will not condone their sin.

The problem I wanted to state was that I don't care if bible hates or loves homosexuals. The problem is that it considers homosexuality a sin.
Why is it even a sin when god himself created homosexuals?

God didn't create homosexuals; He created people. Homosexuality was never in God's plan for humanity; we created it when we sinned against Him. Now, my opinion is that homosexual orientations themselves are not sins, because it is true that some people naturally have these tendencies against their will. I think it is whether you act on them (mentally, like lust, or physically, like actually espousing someone of the same sex) that crosses the "sin" line. I think it's like ordinary temptation; everybody is at some point tempted to do something sinful - even Jesus was tempted - but it is whether we give in to the temptation or not that makes it a sin (or not).
Jackie Hill Perry, an ex-lesbian Christian poet and rapper, put it this way:

"If God chooses not to change my desires, he has promised to give me his Holy Spirit that will help me flee from them. There are people who were alcoholics for 20 years, went through rehab and they don't drink anymore, but sometimes they may be tested. If they see a bottle of whiskey, they're going to want that whisky, but they have a choice."