<< Back to General Forum   Search

Posts 1 - 30 of 46   1  2  Next >>   
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/6/2019 03:47:34


Ekstone 
Level 55
Report
I created a separate thread for this because I don't want to mess the Tour Magazine more.

First of all, I write here the current plans which are in my mind now (I changed some things):

  • It will be a 16 players event, for the TOP16 players of the finished yearly Tour Race (based on the 50 events of the given year).
    In case if somebody don't want to join to the event, then the next player on the Race Ranking will be invited.
    The original plan was the TOP8 (and this has been communicated so far), but I would like to expand it.
    I will contact the TOP16 players, asking them if they are interested in this event or not, and if any of them won't, I will carry on with the next ranked players until we will have 16 players.
  • It will be a single elimination tournament with best of X (boX) format and seeding.
    Since these features are currently not exists (neither officially nor CLOT), I will create the games manually.
    • The seeding will be:
      • 1. vs. 16.
      • 8. vs. 9.
      • 5. vs. 12.
      • 4. vs. 13.
      • 3. vs. 14.
      • 6. vs. 11.
      • 7. vs. 10.
      • 2. vs. 15.
      The list above according to the bracket (so in the QF will be 1./16. vs. 8./9., 5./12. vs. 4./13., etc matches)
      Or if somebody will make a Twitch.tv stream we can do a live "hand-draw", based on the tennis Grand Slams drawing rules
      https://warlight.uservoice.com/forums/77051-warlight-features/suggestions/15523269-seeded-private-tournaments
      so in this case only the 1. and 2. seeded players would have a fix position, the other players would be "hand-draw"-ed to them (read more in the link)
    • The round formats will be:
      • the first round (Round of 16 (ro16)) will be best of 3 (bo3) format,
      • the Quarterfinals will be best of 5 (bo5),
      • the Semifinals will be bo7
      • the Finals will be bo11 format.
  • The templates will be choosen by the two players of the given fight
    Before every fights there will be two additional phases:
  • Maximum two games at a time for the players from this event.
    I will create two games (on the first two chosen templates) at the beginning of every fights, and only create new game if one of them finished AND still need new game (so if only one game win is missing to win the match, then I won't open new game)
    Of course, If both players agreed (and ask me), I can increase (or decrease) this maximum two parallel games rule for the given fight, but still can't be more ongoing games which minimum needed to decide the match!
    eg. bo5, and both two players agreed on the 4 parallel games, but I won't create 4 starting games but only 3, because a 3:0 can finish the bo5 match
    or eg. bo7 and both two players agreed on the 4 parallel games, in this case I will open 4 games first, but after the first game finished, I wont create new one, if the second finished, and 2:0 still won't create new game (because a 4:0 can decide the match) but if the results 1:1 I will create a new game (because in this case need minimum 3 plus game to decide the match).
    I hope my description and examples are understandable, this is because for prevent the stalling.
  • The results will be tracked in forum topics.
    There will be a main topic for the whole Tour Finals, continuously updated first post with the actual results and links, and there will be news and analysis posts, just like in the Tour Magazine right now.
    And there will be separated topics for every fights, where will be the place of the template pool building and template ban/pick phases, the created game links, the finished game results, all connected actions, the rooting, discussing, flaming and the SHOW :)
  • I am still thinking when it will start.
    Of course, first the last running event should be finished
    (https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer/Tournament?ID=27203 3 games remained, 1 QF, 1 SF and the Finals).
    And of course, before it we have to find out all the rule details in this brainstorming topic.
    But after those, still a question what would be the most ideal start date for this event?
  • It will be a scoring event on the Tour.
    • 2000 points for the Champion,
    • 1000 points for the second placed player,
    • 500 points for the SF losers,
    • 250 points for the QF losers,
    • 0 point for the first round losers.
    It may seem a lot, but don't forget, to play at this event you need finished in TOP16, which mean many previous invested work!
    These points will be added to the official Ranking too (so the maximum points will be 21000 instead of the current 19000) and will be expired only after the new year Tour Finals will be finished (the new results will replace the old ones).
    In the Rankings sheet, there will be a new column before the columns of Grand Slams.
  • In addition to the points, the winner will also win the AWP World Champion title!
    So in the end, we will have
    • a Year-end No.1 player (with the most points from the 51 events of the given year) and
    • an AWP World Champion player (who won the Tour Finals event)
    and the two will not necessarily be the same person.
    I will add these two things to the Tour Records section.
    Btw my intentions that this AWP World Champion title to be the biggest achievement on the Tour, the final goal for the Tour players!
Ok, that is all which are in my mind now.

Now I am waiting for your opinions, proposals, helps.
And not only the potential participants (TOP20 on the Race) can write, but anyone else's opinions are very welcomed!

Thank you for reading this.
And thank you in advance for your time if you help me!
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/6/2019 03:52:42


Ekstone 
Level 55
Report
Here are my proposals about the format of the first round (Round of 16 (RO16)) and the Quarterfinals (QF).

So this is my proposal for the first two rounds
(for the SF and the Finals I have different proposal (with a template pool building phase (=wider template pool)), I will share it here later)

I am waiting for your opinions.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/6/2019 06:57:36


Timinator • apex 
Level 65
Report
It will be a scoring event on the Tour.
2000 points for the Champion,
1000 points for the second placed player,
500 points for the SF losers,
250 points for the QF losers,
0 point for the first round losers.
It may seem a lot, but don't forget, to play at this event you need finished in TOP16, which mean many previous invested work!
These points will be added to the official Ranking too (so the maximum points will be 21000 instead of the current 19000) and will be expired only after the new year Tour Finals will be finished (the new results will replace the old ones).
In the Rankings sheet, there will be a new column before the columns of Grand Slams.


I kinda disagree on this part. Just like in sports, you should not have an advantage for being last years champion.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/6/2019 07:09:42


alexclusive 
Level 63
Report
Hey, Ekstone!

Great idea, I love this! Maybe you could post the names of the 16/20 highest rated players so everyone of them knows that he can participate? As for me, I wouldn't have guessed that I am part of this number because I rarely check the leaderboard and don't do too good in most of the AWP tournaments.

Your idea is so detailed already that it's hard to make useful suggestions. I have only one so far: I am not sure whether the 1st vs 16th, 2nd vs 15th etc. format is necessary for two reasons:

1) It is quite complicated as long as there is no tournament format which does this automatically, many people who watch the event would fail to understand it.
2) In real life tournaments that use this system, it is supposed to make sure that the participants actually try to rank high even if they would reach the next round with lower places too. So, for example in the Football World Championship, the first round in the k.o. phase is 1vs4 and 2vs3 to make sure that the teams care whether they are 1st or 2nd to get the easier opponent. In AWP, this is not necessary, because as you said, being the Year-end No.1 player is an achievement itself and does not only qualify you for the participation in the World Tour Finals just like the 16th place does.

If another idea comes to my mind, I will post it :)
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/6/2019 07:35:11


master of desaster 
Level 65
Report
I like it and will participate. I agree giving awp points for that series is probably not too good for the competition, even though these points would be much more representative than any grand slam...

I see no reasons against the matchmaking ekstone suggested since the ranking of the top 16 will be displayed anyways as soon as everyone agreed to play so it shouldn't be too hard to follow imo.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/6/2019 08:52:36


Ekstone 
Level 55
Report
Thank you very much for your opinions and ideas!

I kinda disagree on this part. Just like in sports, you should not have an advantage for being last years champion.

I agree giving awp points for that series is probably not too good for the competition

But what advantages are we speaking about? :)
I mean:
  • if we would be able to use seeding tourneys, then the Ranking would be more important (because the seeding would based on the Ranking). But we can't use seeding tourneys.
  • I do the invitations mainly based on Rankings, but TOP50 and TOP100, and this would only affect the first 16 players, so it is not important from this point of view neither.
  • What MoD wrote:
    even though these points would be much more representative than any grand slam...
    What is the different between a Grand Slam and this Tour Finals event? Both give advantage from previous year, and as MoD said, the Finals will be more representative!
  • This won't affect the Tour Races, only the rolling Rankings will be affected by this, but my intention that the Tour Race and this AWP Tour Finals (and the AWP World Champion title) to be the main goal of Tour players, and the rolling Rankings only a not very important thing (only using for invitations (TOP50/TOP100) and if we will have then for seeding)
  • And it is the same in tennis what I plan to use here.

---------------------

Maybe you could post the names of the 16/20 highest rated players so everyone of them knows that he can participate?

The present (ongoing results are updated too) TOP16 players on the Tour Race:



And the last ongoing event:
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer/Tournament?ID=27203

Only Muli OR Reza can get into the TOP16, so the TOP15 players already qualified himself, and I sent them an invitation mail to the Tour Finals event.

So far, six players responded, and everyone said yes.
So the sure participants so far: alexclusive, Styxie, Timi, Beren, MoD and malakkan.

Still waiting 9 answers.
Muli or Reza (who will win this game: https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=18525664) will be the 16th player I will invite.
And if somebody will say no (or simple inactive) then I will invite the 17th player (who will be Milly) and so on.

You can check the current standing of the 2018 Tour Race here (for 16th+ places):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTNLg9JWasCwCbh2TR4fAvTuw49T1i5npOhdcdEdf9cMvw-l611wP9_LNmzM02Ym2gSNfJJR-92ELMH/pubhtml
But you have to manually add the results from the last ongoing Masters event (linked above)

---------------------

It is quite complicated as long as there is no tournament format which does this automatically, many people who watch the event would fail to understand it.

I will make a nice and simple single elimination bracket in a google docs, so you can follow that ;)
(the bracket will have links which will carry you to the separated fight forum topics for the details of the duels)

you said, being the Year-end No.1 player is an achievement itself and does not only qualify you for the participation in the World Tour Finals just like the 16th place does.

Yes, but I said also, that I want that this AWP World Champion title to be the most important achievement on the Tour (if you are a good player, you can easy qualify to the event (reaching 2000 points for a good player is not very hard challenge!), then the real fight will start in this Tour Finals event! ;) And as MoD wrote, this event will be more representative than for example the present Grand Slams without best of X format nor seeding)
And we will use seeding in the Tour Finals, and this is why important what ranked position you will have in the Tour Race in the end, just like in your football example.

Edited 5/6/2019 09:08:13
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/6/2019 09:25:51

kicorse 
Level 62
Report
Hey Ekstone. Sounds great, I'm in!

The template pool is good (you know me - I would always vote for more weird templates), and the plan is good.

It will be a lot of work for you. People declining or ignoring the initial invitation is one thing, but you can bet that someone will drop out in the middle (and not tell you or their opponent), so you need a plan for how much time to give non-responders. And others will get confused about the pick-ban system, even though you have described it clearly. As a result, the series could take a long time to complete, with plenty of frustration for you along the way. But I guess you know all this.

On timi's point, I can see both sides. The main thing is that this year's finals should not count towards qualification for next year's finals, which is the case.

I'm also neutral on alex's points.

Looking forward to it!
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/6/2019 09:57:16


Ekstone 
Level 55
Report
Cool, then we have already 7 participants!

you know me - I would always vote for more weird templates

What a mistake! Now everybody will know what templates (weird ones) have to ban against you ;) :D

It will be a lot of work for you.

Yes, but I will enjoy this ;)

you can bet that someone will drop out in the middle (and not tell you or their opponent), so you need a plan for how much time to give non-responders.

There will be 3 days auto boot (regarding non-joining too), so will not be too enjoyable, but the inactive players will loose by boots.
But I hope that there will not be many such cases.

And others will get confused about the pick-ban system, even though you have described it clearly.

I'll be there to help everyone in the first steps (by PM mails, or in the fighting topics or any other way)
All beginnings are difficult, there will be confusions, but I will help.
And we speak about only 16 players, TOP16 players with good strat kills, so I am sure you all will be able to understand this system well ;)

Btw, I will need a volunteer who first understands everything very well, then write the rules and a FAQ with correct English, not with my Hunglish above.
I hope that my brand new Tour admin partner, s1gmoyd will do this, but every volunteer works are very welcomed! ;)

The main thing is that this year's finals should not count towards qualification for next year's finals, which is the case.

THIS!
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/6/2019 11:11:18

kicorse 
Level 62
Report
There will be 3 days auto boot (regarding non-joining too), so will not be too enjoyable, but the inactive players will loose by boots.
But I hope that there will not be many such cases.

Does this also apply to the pick/ban phase? And if so, how? It's a phase that has 10+ "turns". And I assume that players on vacation are exempt?

Your "Hunglish" is clear to me, by the way.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/6/2019 17:15:18


Quicksilver 
Level 60
Report
"Hunglish" lol :)
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/6/2019 18:25:37


AI 
Level 63
Report
Thanks Ekstone!

I really like that you expanded the finals to 16 Players. Not only because I have the opportunity to play now, but also because it makes the finals even more exciting and it also allows players who played a good year, but not in many tournaments, to qualify.

Your ideas already sound very detailed and good. Everything is well explained and considering there are only 16 guys who have to understand it, I think there won't be any misunderstandings (These guys are probably also motivated and invest 10 minutes in reading this).

So, my ideas:

- I can see why you want to give the higher seeded player more power in the picking/baning phase, this is fine. But player A is probably too "strong" there, he has the first pick, first ban and one pick more. If you want to leave it like that, I'm completely fine, but Maybe that's something to Think About.

- I have no opinion About whether the Event should give AWP Points. However, what Timi said isn't exactly true, in most Sports you have an Advantage from being last years winner, f.e. money you get for Winning trophies, that you can invest to build up a stronger Team for the next Season. However, I see why this is not exactly the same.

- When to start? Doesn't make sense to wait for the end of CL, Seasonal, Summer breaks, etc.pp. You can Always find a reason why Right now is a bad time. Just get it started asap. Also considering this is 2018 finals ;-)

- Picking / Banning could happen on a seperate Discord server. This should be fast and there is always someone online to "control" the process

Edited 5/6/2019 18:27:25
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/6/2019 18:55:26

Rento 
Level 60
Report
- I can see why you want to give the higher seeded player more power in the picking/baning phase, this is fine. But player A is probably too "strong" there, he has the first pick, first ban and one pick more. If you want to leave it like that, I'm completely fine, but Maybe that's something to Think About.


Being first to pick/ban is a disadvantage. If you pick the template your opponent wanted to pick, you're doing him a favor and he can pick/ban his 2nd choice. So it's better to move second.
But: choosing the final templates clearly is an advantage for the first player. So all in all, it balances very nicely. Letting the seeded player choose if he wants to go first or second is a great idea.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/7/2019 03:58:38


Ekstone 
Level 55
Report
All players responded, and everyone said yes, so we have already 15 participants:
alexclusive, Styxie, Timi, Beren, MoD, malakkan, kicorse, Buns, JV, Rento, Quicksilver, AI, reakleader, FSG and Octane.

There is only one place left to fill, who will be the last one?
Muli or Reza?
The deciding game is running!
https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer?GameID=18525664
The winner will get the last spot!
Exciting! :)

--------------------------

Does this also apply to the pick/ban phase? And if so, how? It's a phase that has 10+ "turns". And I assume that players on vacation are exempt?

Good catch! And a good question, I didn't think about this yet.
Yes, the template ban/pick phase use turns, 10+, so it can be a problem (long time)
But wait, only important the first 4 ban/pick turns, because after those we will have two chosen templates, so I can create the first two games using those two and fight can start! So we have to manage four additional turns only, which is not a big deal, at least better than 10+ turns ;) Ban/pick turns can run with the same rules, 3 days boot and vacation allowed.

Picking / Banning could happen on a seperate Discord server. This should be fast and there is always someone online to "control" the process

I dunno why would be better a Discord server than even a simple forum topic.
Ok, you can see if the others online, and more interactive. So I see :)
But, we mainly need a rule about the pace of ban/pick phase, and booting if one of the players inactive.
And very important, we need a method that allows players to easy see that they are coming and their boot time is running out!

What about if I open a game for these ban/pick phases? With 3 days auto boots and vacation allowed settings. Invite the two players, and the boot time of the higher seeded players started, he have to choose between roles Player A and Player B and write his decision into the chat (if he chosen Player A then his first ban too!) and join to the game, and after that the boot time of the other player start, he have to write his first ban into the chat and join and commit immediately (without moves, the game itself not important only the boot time, it will vote to end), and again the higher seeded player's boot time will start, who write to the chat his first pick and double commit, and so on. Players check their games for sure but not everyone check the forum topics, and in this way the boot time is automated.
What do you think?

--------------------------

but also because it makes the finals even more exciting and it also allows players who played a good year, but not in many tournaments, to qualify.

This was (one of) my goal with this extended TOP16 participants! I mean, the Tour mainly for fun and now as a qualifier for the Tour Finals event, where the serious fights will start :) And reaching TOP16 with 2000 points is not a big deal for a good player, enough if he join and play on the 12 major events (enough if he won a Grand Slam actually :)), or win a few smaller events. So if somebody want to qualify into the main event, that is not an impossible mission (I mean not so time consuming).

--------------------------

But player A is probably too "strong" there, he has the first pick, first ban and one pick more.

Rento already gave the answer (first pick and first ban is a disadvantage rather)

-------------------------

When to start? Doesn't make sense to wait for the end of CL, Seasonal, Summer breaks, etc.pp. You can Always find a reason why Right now is a bad time. Just get it started asap. Also considering this is 2018 finals ;-)

Good point!
So the Tour Finals will start after the last 2018 event finished and we find out all the details here.
And yes, 2018 Finals, but because of the nature of the Tour events (need longer time to finish an event) it never will be earlier than the next spring, but this is ok I think.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/7/2019 11:26:03

kicorse 
Level 62
Report
A dummy game for the pick/ban phase is a great idea. For those of us who don't use discord, using that could easily lead to a boot because we don't know the phase has started.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/8/2019 07:11:56


s1gmoyd
Level 58
Report
For those of you who haven't seen a best of X game before, I set up this last Summer:

https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer/Tournament?ID=25138

It works well but takes time, especially if players don't understand the format.

EDIT: I also made the (wrong) assumption that players wouldn't go AWOL mid-tournament.

In relation to the player A disadvantage, if neither player likes a template, and player A is aware, they can elect to ban a different template, player B's favourite for example, then player B has to either ban the template neither player likes, or ban player A's favourite. Likewise if player A knows player B can't play a certain unbanned template, they can pick it.

Both players need to research their potential opposition to avoid getting dragged into a trap.

Therefore player A should have an advantage as the last map will always be slightly in their favour.

Edited 5/8/2019 07:13:17
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/8/2019 07:27:52


Timinator • apex 
Level 65
Report
There's a lot of vanilla-templates in the map-pool, could've been more diverse tbh.

Edited 5/8/2019 07:29:08
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/8/2019 10:17:37


Ekstone 
Level 55
Report
For those of you who haven't seen a best of X game before, I set up this last Summer:

https://www.warzone.com/MultiPlayer/Tournament?ID=25138

It works well but takes time, especially if players don't understand the format.

EDIT: I also made the (wrong) assumption that players wouldn't go AWOL mid-tournament.

This is a very good format, that you use a dummy tournament for your bo3 event!

Although in our case that is not ok now, because the seeding (and because the future SHOWs in the forum topics ;)), but still a good idea!
(I opened the Nemo vs. psykkoman games to check the chat, and funny that psykkoman wrote "cya in finals" and then... :D )

--------------

In relation to the player A disadvantage, if neither player likes a template, and player A is aware, they can elect to ban a different template, player B's favourite for example, then player B has to either ban the template neither player likes, or ban player A's favourite.

But Player B still has got the chance he can choose, and after he saw Player A's step.
I guess this is still a Player B advantage, no?

Likewise if player A knows player B can't play a certain unbanned template, they can pick it.

But Player B can do the same, no? What is the advantage for Player A here? (sorry for my weak English :/ )

Both players need to research their potential opposition to avoid getting dragged into a trap.

Yes, I'm looking forward a lot to these ban/pick phases, I think they will be very interesting!

Therefore player A should have an advantage as the last map will always be slightly in their favour.

Do you think that the solution I recommended is not enough balanced? I am not sure I understand well what you wrote, sorry.

--------------

There's a lot of vanilla-templates in the map-pool, could've been more diverse tbh.

Well 13 of the 16 participants are member in the Template Panel (including you Timi :P) who chosen these 12 major templates (only Alex, Octane and Muli/Reza weren't)
But if you want, you can organize a participants voting about the template pool ;) (=Version 2 in my linked post above)
Or if the majority want, I can organize this voting, just give me ideas what type of voting I should use.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/8/2019 10:42:52


Timinator • apex 
Level 65
Report
As you might've noticed, i did not give my opinion often, as i was short on time during the voting phase :P
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/8/2019 10:46:32


huddyj
Level 62
Report
The higher seeded player should get to choose in the pick/ban phase whether to go 1st or 2nd instead of having it set in stone. Just a thought...
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/8/2019 11:46:23


Ekstone 
Level 55
Report
As you might've noticed, i did not give my opinion often, as i was short on time during the voting phase :P

You shouldn't have been drinking with Farah...
(oh, that was after the voting, so drinking alone, or Berlin or every time ;))
But in all seriousness, I am open to use the Version 2 where the participants voting about the template pool before the event.

The higher seeded player should get to choose in the pick/ban phase whether to go 1st or 2nd instead of having it set in stone. Just a thought...

The higher seeded player choose if he want to be the first (=Player A) or not (=Player B).

My Hunglish must be really awful... :P
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/8/2019 12:07:13


huddyj
Level 62
Report
Sorry, I read through the thread, but must have missed that. :)
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/8/2019 12:52:40


Timinator • apex 
Level 65
Report
Vanilla SR-Templates (6):
New 1v1 Ladder (Strat MME 0% SR)
Battle Islands V
Phobia SR
Volcano Island
Strategic Greece
Guiroma 16% SR

Slightly Weird, almost Vanilla (2):
Biomes of America
French Brawl

WR-Templates (2):
Old 1v1 Ladder (Strat ME 0% WR)
British Raj

Weird (2):
Blitzkrieg Borg
Macedonia No Split


Just saying we got a ton of Vanilla-Templates. At least from my viewpoint. And yes, that was around the Berlin Open ;)
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/8/2019 16:23:15


Ekstone 
Level 55
Report
@huddyj
np ;)

@Timi
Do you want more Macedonia No Split? ;)
But jokes aside, I wrote that I am open for a template pool voting by the participants.

Btw, my categories are:
  • Vanilla SR templates
    (New 1v1 ladder settings and the too similar "clones")
    • New 1v1 Ladder (Strat MME 0% SR)
    • Battle Islands V
    • Phobia SR
    • Volcano Island
  • Not vanilla SR templates
    (this is a category between the vanilla SR and the soft weird templates)
    • Strategic Greece
    • Guiroma 16% SR
  • WR templates
    (WR templates with standard settings (I don't divide this into vanilla and not vanilla like SR, because there isn't too much WR templates (compared to SR))
    • Old 1v1 Ladder (Strat ME 0% WR)
    • British Raj
  • Soft weird templates (can be SR or WR)
    (where the gameplay is different a bit than the standards)
    • Biomes of America
    • French Brawl
  • Very weird templates (can be SR or WR)
    (where the gameplay is very different, these are usually the controversial templates (hated by many but loved too), the templates with more special settings)
    • Blitzkrieg Borg
    • Macedonia No Split
And about the too many vanilla SR templates.
There are players who like the standard SR templates and hate the luck settings and don't like the weird things neither. There are many players like that. And there are players who don't like the vanilla SR templates (they refer to bean counting, but actually they are lazy to count only :P), but like WR templates and weird settings.
And much easier to play on Vanilla SR templates than on the other ones, I mean the players who don't like the beancounting, still very good on those templates, but vice versa is not always true.

And we have 6 SR and 6 not SR templates now, so the SR lovers can choose an SR template as own template and the other camp can choose a WR or weird template as own one, and the deciding template never will be Vanilla SR template for sure (the anti-Vanilla fans can ban them). Similar for bo5 settings too.

So it seems so many Vanilla SR templates, but because the bans, in the end will be balanced for both SR fans and SR haters imo.

But again, I am open for using Version 2, i.e. the participants will vote to the template pool before the event start.
Btw, I would listen the opinions of the other participants too.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/8/2019 18:11:54


AI 
Level 63
Report
I highly disagree that we should start a discussion About templates now.
It's sad that Timi didn't have the Chance to bring himself in properly but that's how it is. There was a lot of time for that discussion and we had a reasonable and good decision in the end.
Don't make Things more complicated than they could be.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/9/2019 12:01:39


s1gmoyd
Level 58
Report
Assuming two equally skilled players have exactly the opposite preference in terms of templates (T1-12):

Player A bans T12
Player B bans T1
Player A picks T2 (game 1)
Player B picks T11 (game 2)
Player A bans T10
Player B bans T3, T4
Player A bans T9, T8
Player B bans T5
Player A picks T6 (game 3)

So templates 2, 6 and 11 are played, player A should always win their pick (T2) and player B should always win their pick (T11), and T6 slightly favours player A (say 60% of the time). In this case (and other similar ones), player A has a 60% chance of winning.
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/9/2019 16:23:44

kicorse 
Level 62
Report
Yeah, AI is right. I was one of those who argued for less vanilla than we ended up with, but others wanted more vanilla than we ended up with. The outcome was a fair reflection of the discussion, and it should be a settled issue for the year. When I made my above comment, I hadn't noticed that they were the Grand Slam/Masters templates.

Do you want more Macedonia No Split? ;)

You could always make it compulsory... ;)
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/10/2019 04:33:26


Ekstone 
Level 55
Report
I highly disagree that we should start a discussion About templates now.
It's sad that Timi didn't have the Chance to bring himself in properly but that's how it is. There was a lot of time for that discussion and we had a reasonable and good decision in the end.

We speak about two things here!
One is the major template voting for the Tour. That's finished with a good turnout (13 of 15 voted for Grand Slams and 12 of 15 voted for Masters!), so the result is quite representative imo.
The other is the template pool building for the first two rounds in the Tour Finals.
I just propose the 12 elected major templates for this template pool too (I wrote above why), but we don't have to use it!
If the majority of the participants want to vote on it (Version 2 in my Magazine post linked above), we can do it!
So far Timi wants a new vote for it, AI and kicorse don't want. 3 of 16 so far, I am waiting for the rest opinions too.

So templates 2, 6 and 11 are played, player A should always win their pick (T2) and player B should always win their pick (T11), and T6 slightly favours player A (say 60% of the time). In this case (and other similar ones), player A has a 60% chance of winning.

Very good analysis, thx!
But :)
I think, the winning chance is not correct.
I mean for example the Vanilla SR haters can play on those templates at a very high level, just hate to count :P
Ok, their advantage will be less than on a template he loves, but still not so low.
And a WR hater can play enough high level on the WR templates too (or he can have extreme luck at least ;) ), just hates it.
So I think this is more about the templates love and hate than the winning chance (winning chance affected too, but not so much as it seems at first sight imo)

But this is a brainstorming topic!
So please give us more possibilities, so write here your proposals about the template pool buildings and pick/bans order, etc.
We can only speak about my proposals, but that is not effective enough imo.
I mean a brainstorming is not this, but ton of ideas, an idea tsunami ;)
And not only from the participants but from anyone ;)

So come on guys, it's talk time! ;)
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/10/2019 11:11:32


s1gmoyd
Level 58
Report
You mentioned Versions 1 and 3 as the template building phases for the event, however I would recommend a modified form of Version 2 for all rounds:

Given you're using 13 maps in the semifinals and finals, I'll go with that instead of 12:

The 4 Grand Slam templates will be in the pool regardless.
Participants choose 9 templates from the 20 Masters 1000 and 500 Series templates to add to the pool, with a limit of:

3 vanilla SR templates
4 non-vanilla SR templates (all the other categories have a Grand Slam template)
3 WR templates
3 soft weird templates
3 hard weird templates

for balance.

Then you can apply the pick/ban phase below to alleviate the advantage of being player A (however small).

EDIT: So I think this is more about the templates love and hate than the winning chance

In a series as long as the ones you're proposing, psychological effects are just as important as gameplay, a player that knows they're going to have to play a template they dislike is going to suffer.

Edited 5/10/2019 11:21:26
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/10/2019 11:16:55


s1gmoyd
Level 58
Report
Best of 3:
A bans 1
B bans 2
A bans 2
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 1
A bans 1
B bans 2
A bans 1
1 template is left over

Best of 5:
A bans 1
B bans 2
A bans 2
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 1
A bans 1
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 1
1 template is left over

Best of 7:
A bans 1
B bans 2
A bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 2
B picks 1
A bans 1
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 1
1 template is left over

Best of 11:
A bans 1
B bans 1
B picks 1
A picks 2
B picks 2
A picks 2
B picks 2
A picks 1
1 template is left over
AWP World Tour Finals - brainstorming thread: 5/11/2019 05:30:43


Ekstone 
Level 55
Report
First of all, thank you s1gmoyd for your Hunglish to English translation of my first post! I will replace my text on your mailed one.

And thank you a lot for your proposals!

In a series as long as the ones you're proposing, psychological effects are just as important as gameplay, a player that knows they're going to have to play a template they dislike is going to suffer.

This is a good point!
Well, we have the tools, I mean we can use more ban steps before the picks (as in your proposals) so players can ban more templates they hate, so they can reduce the suffering level.
But it also means that the chance they can play on their most favorite templates is reducing too!
So this is the question, what do the participants want?
  • Playing with less misery on common templates but likely missing their favorite ones.
  • Or playing on their favorite templates but likely suffer from their opponents' ones.
The other important thing is the balance, we should find the most balanced version of the ban/pick steps (the perfect balance is impossible imo, but try to find the most balanced one)

But first of all, we should determine the template pool, because the ban/pick phase is based on that!

The 4 Grand Slam templates will be in the pool regardless.

I like that we both think in very similar way :)
There is an upgraded Version 3 in my mind, where there would be 3 parts of the template pool, one common parts (which decided before the event, and can be the template pool we will use for round1 and 2) and two parts from the two players in the given duel. This give more tactics possibility in the ban/pick phase (not simple ban opponent's elected templates and pick mines) and even in the template building phase. But I am still thinking about the details so I can post this only later.

But this is only for the Semifinals and Finals, with the last four players, because it is more difficult than the Version 1 or Version 2 (and easier guiding 4 players than 16).
I would like this mainly for testing purposes, how this type of template pool building phase can work in practice. I think it can, and gives additional strategic dimensions to the duels. Or not :) Please wait for I find out all the details of my idea and post here, then you can destroy it and we can use Version 1 or 2 template pool building phase for all rounds ;)

Until we can speak about the round1-2 template building method.

Participants choose 9 templates from the 20 Masters 1000 and 500 Series templates to add to the pool, with a limit of

The "limit of" means maximum template numbers from the given template categories in the final template pool?
And how the participants would choose the 9 templates? With a voting? Which type of voting?
Details please ;)
And the details will be difficult, this is why I chose the very simple Version 1 ;)
But I am absolutely open for Version 2 (what you proposed and Timi wants) if we find out the details.

And again, this is a brainstorming topic, I am waiting for all your ideas regarding template pool building and ban/pick phases.
These two things are the key elements of this event, if we can find simple enough, well balanced, well working phases it will be cool.
Please help us to find!

Edited 5/11/2019 05:34:18
Posts 1 - 30 of 46   1  2  Next >>