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WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 01:48:24


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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If you wanted to push the bots to the limit you could force the same bots to play some FFA and team games as well. Im sure a lot of these games will be total clusterfucks though.
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 02:33:54


Trogatog
Level 52
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So here's my confession while we're all giving away secrets: my bot is a SA bot. I started taking picks in Australia simply to get that ever important, "Where is my opponent?" information. The Australia portion just kind of grew out of necessity.

When I hit 3000, I realized that my bot's biggest weakness was becoming the fact it sucked taking on other SA bots and was losing more and more to them, that's why I changed strategies and now take a completely more dynamic route to early game tactics. I've spent much less time coding combat and more predicting what your bot is going to do. You'll notice that Trogabot gets significantly worse when we are spread out across more than 2 continents in combat because the possibilities become more and more complex.

Every once in a while, I'll get both SA regions and just smile as my bot settles in like it's back home :)
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 03:12:23


Trogatog
Level 52
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I am seriously looking forward to the post-finals on this. I've gotta give serious props to all of you guys though:

Norman: Dalek has just been amazing to watch and learn from. I don't know how you resist not trying to code an update whenever a game is lost because you truly know strategy on this map.

Pedrito: you clearly are a better Warlight player than I am. Again, I've learned tons from watching our games and how you exploit weaknesses of other bots so naturally

PS: you give me the most frustrating matches of all simply because every time I think my bot has out-smarted yours, you still humble me and send me back to the drawing board

125ch209: I think Gadzbot is the only bot who has truly tapped into the overlooked opportunity of really analyzing the place starting armies and using it to its full potential. I swear to God, if I lose because you put troops in Siam again, I'm going to scream... Not bad for a rookie programmer :)

GreenTea: where the f*** did your bot come from??? Out of nowhere a new player shows us what dynamic bots (I can only assume) are capable of doing.

I don't think I've had as much fun coding and talking to other programmers/warlight junkies as I have these past couple months. Seriously, thanks everyone and good luck come May 25th!
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 03:51:59


Norman 
Level 58
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Hello

I stronlgy dislike the idea of teamgames while ffa maybe could work for having some casual fun with bots. One reason is that I think teamgames are to complicated. I think most bot programmers are just casual programmers who took the starterbot and added some better heuristics to it. Here is how teamgames would have to be implemented if you take things seriously:

Teamgames:
Bot teamgames fall into the category of distributed artificial intelligence. It has to be well defined how the bots communicate with each other. Human teamgames have quite a complex communication for example:
- Send me 10 supporting armies to North Africa.
- Let's attack North Africa together.
- Move your stack before fifth order out of North Africa since I will attack you fifth order to take the bonus.
- Let me take Africa please.
- ...
Humans then might agree or not agree with the proposal. Of course you could just make one bot the puppet master telling all bots how to move but then it's not really a team game. Then it's just one bot playing who doesen't have the ability to deploy his full income everywhere.

ffa:
When I create an ffa I try to make the settings so that alliances aren't that important. The settings are:
- Huge open world
- Multiattack
- many neutrals
- light fog
The open map ensures that you can't just sit behind a chokepoint. The high amount of neutrals makes attacking the opponent often more worthwile than expanding. Multiattack makes it possible to form a huge stack and crush a far stronger opponent. You are never really safe. So sad people just don't understand. Even with super low prerequisites my ffa's take forever to fill while all those other crappy ffa's fill in no time. Just look at those awesome games. How can anyone who ever felt the touch of a real ffa play those stupid diplos any longer:
http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=5394051
http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=5388727
http://warlight.net/MultiPlayer?GameID=5389146
Ok, this was more about me hating all those ffa in the open games tab but what I also wanted to say is that if you implement ffa you have to be very careful about the settings. Use a map with a chokepoint in the middle and nothing will move, even without the bots forming alliances. Some ffa creators enforce an army cap so if you have to much armies on the board your income drops down. That way it's more worthwile to use your armies against an opponent.
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 04:04:11


Norman 
Level 58
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Norman: Dalek has just been amazing to watch and learn from. I don't know how you resist not trying to code an update whenever a game is lost because you truly know strategy on this map.

Sorry, no more updates on SupremeDalek. I'm not in school anymore ;(

Since you talk about strategy: I believe on this small earth you can implement something like a "perfect play" and I think I know how the perfect play looks like. You go for South America and stack in North Africa. Even without the opponent showing up in Africa immediately you just sit there for a couple turns until you are able to safely take North America.

The reason most bots fail playing South America is because they don't defend North Africa. With you having 7 income and the opponent having 7 income from Australia there is no way for you to throw the opponent out of Africa if he just plays passively.
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 04:25:53


Trogatog
Level 52
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Since you talk about strategy: I believe on this small earth you can implement something like a "perfect play" and I think I know how the perfect play looks like. You go for South America and stack in North Africa. Even without the opponent showing up in Africa immediately you just sit there for a couple turns until you are able to safely take North America.

I had a version do that once -- on accident. It won a couple games, but I was like, "Yeah, this can't possibly be good..."
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 10:56:13

GreenTea 
Level 60
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GreenTea: where the f*** did your bot come from??? Out of nowhere a new player shows us what dynamic bots (I can only assume) are capable of doing.


=)

No miracle. Just 1 month before posting first version of bot I started to implement some submodules of future bot: like map analyzing, optimal expanding, analyzing of attack & battle etc.

Sorry, no more updates on SupremeDalek. I'm not in school anymore ;(

Norman, what do you mean? You have no access to source code from home?
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 12:50:34


ps 
Level 61
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That would be very cool, do you think anyone can do it? I assumed that was way beyond your capacity as most humans cant do that, and the bots in the current competition aren't even close. It sounds like you should use the real time ladder templates.


You just have to break it down to smaller problems. Out of the top of my head, thing one could try:
1) calculate how safe each superregion is, based on how many borders they have with others
2) calculate a rate for expansibility (how many turns it will take to take next superregion once you have that one)
3) determine importance of each region as chokepoints in expansion strategies
4) simulate different scenarios to estimate best expansion strategy and how to counter it
5) estimate opponent income and expansion strategy
6) simulate min-max what the opponent would likely do next turn and the best way to counter it

with these points alone i think you could already code a decently competitive bot against a regular warlight player. taking it to match elite players is another story, but yes i believe it can be accomplished to a competitive degree.

regardless, my idea would be to keep things open source as much as possible, so that new coders picking up the problem on the next challenge already have the grunt work code available and can focus on improving it in terms of strategy.
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 12:54:38


ps 
Level 61
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The reason most bots fail playing South America is because they don't defend North Africa. With you having 7 income and the opponent having 7 income from Australia there is no way for you to throw the opponent out of Africa if he just plays passively.


yeah, i'm still trying to fix that on mine, and i think that's the only thing stopping me from getting higher on the ranking imho.
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 15:01:36

GreenTea 
Level 60
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dead piggy said:

Balanced maps are incredibly dull. Most lottery games are played on balanced maps. All the earth maps are imbalanced, pretty much anything that's not symmetrical is a little. That is a good thing, it creates dynamic strategic games.


Can't agree with you. Balanced != symmetric. Balanced means that it is no easy way to define winning strategy on map. For example if we took medium earth. Could you tell what 3 picks (suppose there are no combos in distribution) are best? Best means that if you got them all then will be no problem to win no matter what other picks choose opponent, if play skill of both players are equal. Probably there no such imbalanced 3 picks. And every combination of picks has its own strategy of play.
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 15:18:48


professor dead piggy 
Level 59
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"Balanced means that it is no easy way to define winning strategy on map." I cant see why you think that?

Balanced means "in good proportions" ie that no area is significantly better than another. In your example, I cant tell you what 3 picks are the best, but theyre likely to be in the '3 income' bonuses, and greenland, aus, and the '4 income 5 territory' bonuses. I can tell you which ones suck: canada, east russia, north africa, west US, East US. Yes obviously sometimes theyre pickable.

The map is imbalanced, north america is weak, africa is strong when you have its choke points, weak when you dont, asia gives very strong expansion options, the south is very safe etc. These imbalances make the game interesting. That is what a template needs, and the current template does not have it. It is balanced around the africa axis. Aus on one side, south america on the other, and then a vast expanse of neutrals, to be totally ignored until you reach a stalemate in north africa.

Edited 5/13/2014 15:23:00
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 19:35:15


125ch209 
Level 58
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i'm happy that the challenge is over soon, after 2 weeks without updating my bot, i can't understand what i wrote anymore, it is such a mess. if i take parrt in the next challenge, i'll have to start from scratch.
Jim: do you have an idea of how long the next challenge will take, from opening to finals?
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 20:06:14


ps 
Level 61
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i'm happy that the challenge is over soon, after 2 weeks without updating my bot, i can't understand what i wrote anymore, it is such a mess.


it can only get better :) you need to learn how to refactor your code for readability. it only comes with practice. i still largely suck at it for example. also, commenting what does what usually helps. :)
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 20:21:39


Trogatog
Level 52
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Once I get my membership, I'm going to be getting a starter bot set up for the Warlight API to distribute so we can start playing games on the fly with each other. I'll see if I can get a game server queued up so your bots can just join at your leisure. It should be a pretty kick-ass project :)

I've got the repository all set up (https://bitbucket.org/trogatog/warlightapistarterbot), but I can't use the API until I get the membership to start parsing out the json objects and sending/receiving test data.
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 20:31:33


125ch209 
Level 58
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when it is over, i'll make my project public, you'll see what i mean by "it is a mess" lol.I do have a lot of comments to keep it readable, but i hardcoded so much stuff that it is hard to keep track of everything. I have 3016 lines in the main class file, i wonder how many lines of code do you guys have? I bought a 867 pages book about JAVA progamming but i didn't have the chance nor the courage to take a look at it yet, maybe i'll start to read it for the next challenge. I also saw that there is some JAVA courses on youtube when i was looking into the A* pathfinding you guys talked about, it might be more entertaining than a book.
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 20:52:29


Trogatog
Level 52
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http://theaigames.com/competitions/warlight-ai-challenge/games/53727c424b5ab26e84c80128

Dalek's last move was basically Norman's way of saying,

Yeah, I could've... but I didn't.
...but I could've


Made me laugh at least :)
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/13/2014 23:23:34

{rp} pedrito 
Level 48
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A thrilling game of back and forth.... neither bot manages to wrest control of the situation completely at any point, every turn is on the edge of deciding the entire game yet every time the opponent manages to pull things around. Breathtaking, exciting and... ah no, wrong game, sorry.

http://theaigames.com/competitions/warlight-ai-challenge/games/537273bc4b5ab26e84c8008e

By the way thanks for all your compliments Trogatrog, and thanks everyone for being such a great community. Lets keep some of this going after the finals!
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/14/2014 01:55:11


Trogatog
Level 52
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WarLight AI Challenge: 5/14/2014 07:01:18

jim
Level 2
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125ch209: the Beta of poker will be online this friday, then after the finals of Warlight it will go fully live. Then it'll probably take around 2-3 months before we start the finals of the poker game.
WarLight AI Challenge: 5/14/2014 07:21:15


125ch209 
Level 58
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damn i'll probably have to play this challenge as well, if there is a game i love more than warlight, it is poker...
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